Why we'll get no further revelations that Snape is Really Evil (even if he i

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 169766

> > wynnleaf
> > There's no reason to change Harry's, or any other character's 
> opinions
> > about Snape for the *worse.*  Harry's and other character's 
> opinions
> > of Snape are already about as bad as they can get.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I understood what you meant and in general in any other finished 
> work I would have agreed with you. The point that I was trying to 
> make is that  IMO we do not know what revelations will be the 
> revelations and which ones are pointless filter.
> 
> Snape motivations remain a mystery in many senses whether Snape is 
> good or evil, are they not? I do not see a reason why we will not 
> learn Snape motivations if he is evil. I mean, we may of course.
> 
> 
> Another example - say we learn that during prank night Snape wanted 
> to kill Remus not just because he is a dark creature, but because he 
> loved Lily and wanted to eliminate the competition. <g> Would it 
> make Snape look worse? Sure - on one hand, on another hand it will 
> make him more human and play to reveal in much speculated Snape/Lily 
> angle.

wynnleaf
But there is no reason to make Snape "more human and play to reveal in
much speculated Snape/Lily angle," unless it is going to change what
Harry will do, how he'll act, etc., or in some other way drive the
plot.  Just making Snape seem more human is not the point of the book.
 The point is how it affects Harry.  If making Snape more human
doesn't change something, the revelation is unnecessary.

Some may feel it would be possible that Evil!Snape is still going to
be given mercy by Harry and making Snape "more human" will affect
that, but JKR doesn't need a lot of revelations about Snape -- why
Dumbledore trusted him, that he cared about Lily, humanizing stuff in
his background maybe, who was at fault in the werewolf prank, etc. --
 simply to have Harry spare his life.  After all, Pettigrew betrayed
Harry's parents to their deaths and Harry didn't need any long
backstory to make Peter "more human" in order to spare his life.  

If Harry is going to actually *forgive* Snape, it's going to not be
just because Snape is more human.  Harry won't forgive him for
murdering Dumbledore because he learns Snape liked Lily or why
Dumbledore unwisely trusted him.  Sparing a bad person's life briefly
to hand him over to the authorities (like with Peter) is rather
different from actually *forgiving* the person who murdered Dumbledore
before his eyes.  And if Harry is going to have to forgive an evil
Snape who murdered Dumbledore and who serves Voldemort, why won't
Harry need to forgive other Death Eaters and even Voldemort himself?  

The thing is, revelations about Snape will change Harry's actions or
opinions.  But there needs to be some sort of internal literary
consistency.  A character development that has Harry forgive evil,
murdering, traitor Snape makes no sense if Harry isn't forgiving any
other evil murderers.  A character development that has Harry simply
grant mercy to Snape doesn't need lot's of excuses and revelations, if
such revelations weren't necessary to be merciful to Peter.  

Alla
> That's my point - that what seems to you as only pointing to Snape 
> being worse and worse an worse, may reveal something **else**, 
> something we may need to learn in the story and not just as 
> pointless filter.

wynnleaf
Oh, there's lots of things that could be revealed, but within the
story itself, the point isn't what "we may need to learn," but what
*Harry* will need to learn.  Within the confines of the story, it's
all about what Harry thinks, learns, and does -- not about what the
reader thinks and learns.  Basically we learn along with Harry.  A
revelation is for Harry's benefit.  So, yes, there can be revelations
about Snape, or any other character or situation, that may reveal
something "else," but those revelations have to *affect* Harry's
choices, growth, etc. 

If Harry learns why Dumbledore trusted Snape, and Harry is not changed
by what he learns, then the answer has no point.  

Jen:
A person learns about
love, forgiveness and mercy from those capable of expressing similar
feelings and concepts, so not matter what Harry knows Snape has done
or will find out about, it's the backstory of Dumbledore, and more
importantly Lily, which I believe will teach Harry to open his eyes
and heart. 

wynnleaf
It may well be revelations about Lily or Dumbledore that will affect
Harry's changes of heart far more than any revelations about Snape. 
But to what *end* does Harry's heart change?  It's not just Harry
getting some sort of warm feelings, or compassionate feelings, or
whatever.  His choices, opinions, actions, in some way have to be
affected by revelations.  As far as any revelations relate to Snape,
they have to *change* something about Harry's choices.

Jen:
Harry does deserve an explanation for why Dumbledore trusted
Snape enough to clear him as a DE, to allow him to teach at Hogwarts
and to let him become a part of Harry's life while knowing Snape
turned over the propehcy and would likely turn his hatred of James
onto Harry, especially once Harry arrived at Hogwarts and looked just
like his dad. 

wynnleaf
We may feel Harry deserves many things, but a literary character
"deserving" something does not mean that they'll get it.  Harry
deserved to have a father figure and JKR still killed off Sirius.  If
he couldn't have a father figure, Harry "deserved" to have someone as
a trusted mentor and JKR killed Dumbledore off, too.  Harry deserves
not to lose any more friends, but he probably will anyway.

Harry deserving something isn't why he'll learn why Dumbledore trusted
Snape.  He'll get that revelation for the same reason he'll get any
other revelation -- to move the plot.

> > > Alla
> > > They will serve to uncover Snape motives further - like Snape 
> > > possibly delaying the Order in OOP may show that Snape is acting 
> > > basically because of his life debt and nothing else, and 
> especially 
> > > if life debt plays  a role at the end, that may play out very 
> nicely.
> 
> > wynnleaf
> > Sure, JKR could show that Snape is basically acting due to a life
> > debt.  Is that *new*?  No, it's not.  Harry *already* knows that 
> Snape
> > considers himself to have a life debt to James.  This is not new 
> and
> > doesn't need a revelation all about how OOTP worked out to tell 
> Harry
> > the life debt exists.  The only reason to show more about Snape's
> > motives is if it's going to make a difference to Harry.  Just 
> showing
> > Harry that Snape really is just as bad as Harry thought isn't 
> making a
> > difference.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> But we still do not know how Life debt works precisely, are we not? 
> And JKR seems to leave it a mystery on purpose, no?
> 
> What if we learn that that night Snape was hit especially bad with 
> Life debt magic and was forced to act eventually even if he did not 
> want to? What if something like that happens in book 7? 
> Foreshadowing and all that.

wynnleaf
If we learned that Snape had already fulfilled his life debt to Harry
(which it seems to me Dumbledore indicated happened in PS/SS), then
why would that drive the plot further?  Learning about the past is
primarily important for what Harry will now do.  

And suppose Harry learns that the life debt is still in play?  *How*
would Harry learn a life-debt drove Snape to action at a certain time?
 Who exactly would ever tell Harry that?  Only Snape would possibly
know about it, and is he going to announce that to Harry?  And Harry
would naturally believe this murderer/traitor/death eater when he says
he's acting under a life debt to Harry?  Of course not.  It would be
foolish of Harry to trust any revelations directly from Snape at this
point.

At this point, Harry hates Snape and considers him a liar (to
Dumbledore and the Order), a traitor, a murderer, a Death Eater, and
loyal to Voldemort.  He thinks Snape hates him, is a fanatic about
pureblood, and hated both his parents.  At this point, Harry will act
on what he believes about Snape.  Without revelations changing some of
Harry's thinking, Harry will continue to act on those beliefs. 
Revelations that simply confirm Harry's beliefs aren't helpful to the
plot.

Any extra revelation about Snape (such as regarding a life debt), is
useless if it won't change Harry's viewpoint or actions because of his
beliefs above -- that Snape is a traitor, murderer, liar, etc.  

> Alla:
> 
> Snape is not the only character Harry needs to learn about  IMO. 
> What if whatever he learns during Prank helps him understand James 
> even better? Hero journey, becoming own father and all that stuff. 
> Sorry, just watched that cool documentary on Star Wars and Hero 
> Journey <g>

wynnleaf
Sure, there are other revelations besides about Snape.  And I
certainly did not intend to imply that all DH revelations will be
about Snape.  Harry's got other things to learn about other
characters.  But much speculation about the Prank has been how Harry
could learn about extra Bad Things about Snape.  New bad things about
Snape won't drive the plot or change Harry at all.

Since Harry already thinks his dad saved the life of a mean, nasty,
evil Dark guy, I don't see how finding out that Snape did something
else nasty is going to change Harry's opinion of James.  If Harry
learned that Snape had actually known Lupin was a werewolf and went in
to try and kill him, that doesn't change James' actions *at all,* so
it couldn't give Harry something new to learn about James.  The only
difference would be if Harry also learned that James also *knew* Snape
went in there to kill Lupin, and yet James was still trying to save
Snape's life.  Yet if James knew Snape was trying to kill Lupin, it
makes the whole thing look a lot more like James trying to save Lupin,
not Snape -- in which case, there's no life debt.

A big problem with this scenario is that if James knew Snape was
trying to kill Lupin, neither Lupin nor Sirius ever seemed to learn
about it.  If they'd thought Snape's actions were an attempt to murder
Lupin, it would certainly have been mentioned in all the heated
comments about the Prank in POA.  And with only two people left alive
who are privy to the intricate details of what went on (Snape and
Lupin) who exactly is going to tell Harry that Snape went in to kill
Lupin?  Lupin?  Lupin doesn't seem to know that.  Snape?  Why would
Snape tell Harry and in what context that would somehow affect Harry's
opinion to the better about *James*?  

So we're back to any revelations about the Prank needing to change
Harry's viewpoint in some way.  New evidence that Snape is evil
doesn't change a thing.  Evidence that James saved an evil person
doesn't change anything.  Evidence that James pulled a known would-be
murderer out of the tunnel takes away the life debt from Snape and
gives it to Lupin instead, besides being extremely problematic in that
other characters have already contradicted such a scenario.  So we're
left with any revelations about the Prank changing how Harry thinks
about the two remaining characters -- Snape and/or *possibly* Lupin. 
Harry's opinion about Snape can't get any worse, so any change there
would have to be for the better. 

wynnleaf, who thinks major revelations are to drive the plot and the
characters decisions, not to just give the reader interesting tidbits,
or because either the characters or readers are deserving.