Say it isn't so Lupin!!!

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 170019

Dana wrote:
> There will be no new traitor revealed because DH will not be about
turning HBP around but about the revelations of Harry's heart. <snip>

Carol responds:

While I actually agree that DH will be about Harry overcoming his
desire for revenge and whatever other obstacles (both psychological
and physical in the form of Horcruxes) stand in his way of defeating
voldemort through love, I don't think we can state definitively that
"there will be no new traitor" or that "DH will not be about turning
HBP around." Based on both genre conventions (which, of course, JKR is
free to adapt or ignore) and on the earlier books, I'd give the new
traitor (not necessarily Lupin) a 50% chance and turning HBP around a
much greater chance, at least 90% and probably greater than that.
Obviously, you see it differently, and obviously, one of us is wrong,
but it's premature to state absolutely that something will or won't
happen. All we can do is state what we expect to happen and present
our reasons and canon evidence for holding that view.

Dana:
> Everyone is so fixated on wanting to clear Snape of all
responsibility that people seem to forget that the story is about
Harry and his journey of growth. <snip>

Carol responds:
Everybody? Surely, there are at least four or five posters besides you
who think that Snape is utterly despicable and evil. And even those of
us who defend him are not trying to clear him of all responsibility.
He chose to become a Death Eater. He revealed part of the Prophecy to
Voldemort. There's no getting around those two choices, which were his
own, regardless of what came afterward.

Nor are we forgetting that "the story is about Harry and his journey
of growth." That's what a Bildungsroman *is.* So, of course, we expect
the books to focus on Harry and his psychological journey into
adulthood, which, I agree with you, involves setting aside his desire
for revenge (and, IMO, the temptation to use Unforgiveable Curses). As
long as he wants to Crucio his enemies, he might as well be Draco
Malfoy for all the power he'll have to defeat the Dark Lord. All the
emphasis on Love magic being more powerful than Dark magic is in the
books for a reason, but Harry has yet to understand what it's all about.

Anyway, there's no "everybody" who's doing anything. The opinions on
this list are as "many and varied" as the Dark Arts in Snape's
description of them in HBP.

Dana:
> Harry will not be wrong but he will rise above the pettiness of
revenge and hatred unlike Snape ever was able to do. It is Harry's
fools journey (see tarot) and the final instalment will not be about
defeating someone by physically killing or hurting that person or by
being proven wrong. It will be the truth that will set Harry free but
not Snape's truth but the truth of Harry's heart. <snip>

Carol:
 I do think that Harry will be wrong, if only in his desire to seek
vengeance on Snape. "He would never forgive Snape! Never!" just begs
to be overturned. But that aside, I agree that he can't let Snape be
his model regardless of where Snape's loyalties lie. He has to "rise
above the pettiness of revenge and hatred." I think most people on the
list (including most DDM!Snapers) share that view. (You see, we do
have common ground that we can acknowledge without weakening our own
respective positions.) 

I'm interested in your "fool's journey" idea as I don't know anything
about Tarot. Can you clarify? It might very well tie in with the
journey to adulthood of the protagonist of a Bildungsroman (which is
what I see Harry undertaking--I'm not talking about Joseph Campbell
and his "hero's journey" or anything like that).
> 
Dana:
> As I stated before and will state again DD's trust in Snape is not 
an airtight clause that would prevent Snape from ever betraying DD.

Carol:

But we still don't know DD's "ironclad reason" for trusting Snape
because he didn't reveal it. All he said was that he trusted Severus
snape completely. We can't judge whether that reason is "airtight"
until we read it.

Dana: 
> It is not DD that has to live up to the trust he gives but the 
people he gives it to. And there are many possibilities why Snape 
betrayed DD's trust in him but he nevertheless did and no matter 
> what you believe was his reason but nothing in JKR's world justifies
the killing of other people and if she makes an exception with Snape
then indeed I will ask Lupinore if I can hire his wood chipper. 

Carol: But we don't yet know that Snape betrayed DD's trust because we
don't yet know what he meant by "Severus, please." And I'm afraid I
can't agree that "nothing in JKR's world justifies the killing of
other people." Otherwise, she wouldn't have Harry thinking (encouraged
by Dumbledore) that he has to kill Voldemort (not that Voldie is truly
human, but it's still killing if he does it) or Mad-Eye Moody killing
only when he had to (it seems that he killed Evan Rosier, for
example). And I think that *if* killing dumbledore was the only way
for Snape to save Harry's and Draco's lives (especially Harry's), she
would consider that justified. DD was going to die anyway, and JKR may
think, as I do, that one death is better than four (DD's, snape's
Draco's and, especially, Harry's). Maybe in your opinion nothing
justifies killing Dumbledore, but I wouldn't be so sure without having
read DH that JKR shares your views. And I rather expect that Harry
won't share them, either, by the end of the book. (An aside: I *think*
we agree in hoping that JKR will find some other way for Harry to
permanently destroy LV than by casting an AK--the Veil, the Love
room--something other than an AK or other Dark curse.)
> 
> Dana, who totally doesn't care about the rules of literature and 
does not believe JKR will let her story be dictated to how it 
supposed to be instead of her writing it as she wants it to be.

Carol, who isn't aware of any "rules of literature" but is pretty sure
that JKR is aware of genre conventions and various narrative
strategies and uses them to her advantage in telling the story she
wants to tell