The Wise Old Fool, his Kith and his Kin (Quite Long, Even for Me)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 170055

Goddlefrood wrote:
<snip most of your magnum opus>

> One more that I have seen little discussion of is from Barty Crouch
Jnr, while in his guise as Mad-Eye. His views of Snape, I believe are
expressed in this:

> 'Course Dumbledore trusts you,' growled Moody. 'He's a trusting man,
isn't he? Believes in second chances. But me - I say there are spots
that don't come off, Snape. Spots that never come off, d'you know what
I mean?' [24]

> Was it simply his bitterness that a fellow Death Eater had escaped
imprisonment in Azkaban, or is there something more to it?
<snip some 10,000 words or so ;-)>

Carol responds:

Interesting question and not one we can get a definitive answer to
considering the state of Barty Jr.'s soul, but he's clearly attacking
Snape on some level, and he's doing it on a dual level, as himself,
hating Snape for "walking free," and as "Moody," who as of Karkaroff's
trial, still distrusted Snape (and has perhaps told Barty that under
the influence of the Imperius curse). IMO, he wants Snape to think
that DD doubts Snape's loyalty and has authorized him, Moody, to raid
Snape's office (a lie, of course, since DD trusts Snape completely),
and he's also, I think, trying to raise Harry's suspicions that Snape
might have put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire. "Moody" says under
the influence of Veritaserum that he "frightened off every person [he]
thought might try to hurt [Harry] or prevent [him] from winning the
tournament," GoF Am. ed. 676), and I'm guessing that he has Snape as
well as Karkaroff in mind here. (Of course, Snape had no intention of
interfering with Harry's winning or hurting him--setting aside a
detention for prowling the halls--but Barty couldn't know that). Snape
doesn't frighten easily, but he did back off from "Moody," DD's
supposed old friend who knew his background, which he no doubt didn't
want exposed in front of the invisible Harry at that point, allowing
Barty to get away with his disguise (and "borrow" the Marauder's Map
after Snape leaves).

I'm not sure, but I think that Snape hesitates to use Legilimency on
"Moody" in part because of that unnerving magical eye (he'd have to
concentrate on the other one while being, essentially, X-rayed with
the magical one) and in part because of who he thinks "Moody" is. So
he's thrown off in his suspicions, but not in his dislike, for the
DADA instructor who also has DD's trust. (Now there's a big mistake on
DD's part.)

As for "spots that don't come off," I'm not sure what Barty meant,
exactly. Once a Death Eater, always a Death Eater? Was he implying
that Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore had better be a pretense or he'd be
killed by Voldemort? That it's one thing for Dumbledore to trust Snape
(as Voldemort wants) and another thing for that trust to be merited?
Snape, of course, would not understand this meaning because he would
be reading the words as coming from the Auror Moody, who would
implying a doubt of Snape's loyalty to *DD* (and on one level, Barty
is definitely doing that to insure that Snape does nothing to
interfere with Harry's winning the tournament or with Barty's own
actions). But I think that DE!Barty (as opposed to Fake!Moody
manipulating Snape and Harry and fooling DD) may actually have doubted
Snape's loyalty to *LV*, the master for whom he had gone to prison and
endured all those years of the Imperius Curse and was now arranging
Harry's kidnapping and ultimate murder. And I think he used that eagle
owl to express those doubts, which would partially explain "one who I
believe has left me forever" in the graveyard.

Just my interpretation of that cunning and evil manipulator, Barty
Jr., whom I admire as a villain while hating him as a character.

Goddlefrood:

> Note they *must * meet each other, as the very first coup leader in
this glorious land I live in said, there is no other way. Not to say
he'll AK LV though, he patently won't. Whatever happens to neutralise
LV I expect to be to do with love and probably involve a gong sound.
This bit on the gong has come up in interview and it is implied that
more is to come, my interpretation being as you see above:
> 
> JKR: `The other question that I am surprised no one has asked me
since Phoenix came out - I thought that people would - is why
Dumbledore did not kill or try to kill Voldemort in the scene in the
ministry. <snip> Although Dumbledore gives a kind of reason to
Voldemort, it is not the real reason. <snip> Dumbledore knows
something slightly more profound than that [there are two more books
to come]. If you want to wonder about anything, I would advise you to
concentrate on those two questions. That might take you a little bit
> further.' [12]
> 
> The first question, if any are wondering, is why LV survived. That
has been answered in HBP so is no longer of much importance to book 7
except insofar as the Horcruxes must be destroyed, IMO. <snip>
Dumbledore did not kill LV because he knew about the prophecy and by
> reasonable extrapolation wanted Harry to neutralise LV, or proximate
to that. Or maybe it just goes to his being the epitome of goodness,
for which see far
> above.

Carol:
And also, of course, he knew about the Horcruxes, and that LV couldn't
be killed. Vaporizing him would just delay matters, and Harry was
reaching an age when he could actually confront and defeat an embodied
Voldemort. (I also think that an AK is one of those spells that DD is
"too noble" to use, but that's beside the point. He knew that Harry,
the Chosen One, had to destroy the Horcruxes and then defeat
Voldemort--which, I agree will involve Love, not an AK or other Dark
spell.)

However, I'm not so sure that there's any such thing as a spell that
causes a gong sound. My reading is that the nonlethal spell that DD
used, the one that caused LV to make the remark about DD not intending
to kill him, struck the shield that LV had conjured, and the impact
with the metal caused the gong sound, which the spell itself would not
normally do. (Which is not to say that the spell itself would not
cause a fate worse than death, but, then, DD knows he's not the Chosen
One who can defeat Voldemort, so he would have known that he couldn't
defeat LV as he defeated Grindelwald.) All this is just to say that I
don't think there's any "gong spell," and if a particular spell could
defeat LV without killing him once the Horcruxes were destroyed (and
no longer anchored LV's soul to the earth), surely DD would have told
Harry. Instead, he's giving him psychological weapons, understanding
of Voldemort and how his mind works.
> 
Goddlefrood:
> Additionally it is not set in stone that LV must die. There should
be something to be gleaned from: 'Indeed, your failure to understand
that there are things much worse than death has always been your
greatest weakness -' [38]. Is this just a completely throwaway line? I
think not, I think it strongly foreshadows that LV will not die in a
conventional sense and move on to the wizarding equivalent of Hades,
but be reduced to a point where he will no longer be a threat. I do
not think he will be redeemed though, whatever else may happen to him.
<snip>

Carol:
OTOH, "living" in the form of vapor, or even existing essentially
forever with one seventh of a soul could be considered a fate worse
than death, as LV would learn, probably, after a thousand years or so,
at which point, he might even destroy his own Horcruxes so he could
die. It won't happen that way, of course, but one thing DD is saying,
IMO, is that death is the natural extension of life, "the next great
adventure," and not something to be feared. Clearly, LV's is not a
"well-organized mind." And I agree that he won't be redeemed. (To the
extent that we can speak in absolutes here. Let's say that the chance
of his being redeemed is about .0000000001%. IMO.)

Goddlefrood:
> If Dumbledore did have a plan, however vague, to rid the wizarding
world of Lord Voldemort then the only other person likely to be in the
know about that, other than his late self, would be Aberforth and this
is the reason Aberforth will be important in book 7.

Carol:
Um, I tend to think that Snape is in on the plan, too. If he doesn't
know about the Horcruxes, having saved DD from one, I'll be very
surprised. And Hagrid may know more than we suspect.

Carol:
> Aberforth is my favourite, and indeed the favourite of  many, for
being the member of the Order we have not yet properly met. He can
step in to fill the role of expositor for his brother Albus. Aberforth
may well be the one to teach Harry further about love magic and also
be the one to explain about a certain Mr. Multiplicity. We already
know he is Albus's brother, and also we can safely presume that Albus
used him as a spy in the Hog's Head, a rather useful source of gossip
on Death Eaters and Fletchers and Withershins, no doubt. 'Dumbledore
... had a number of useful spies.' [40]. Remus Lupin is spying on the
werewolves <snip>. Snape, of course, Mrs. Figg. <snip>

Carol:
I agree with most of this paragraph. There's a Mundungus/Aberforth
connection (Mundungus being kicked out of the Hog's Head twenty years
before strikes me as being a cover story), and Aberforth is certainly
the spy (Albus tells LV at the failed DADA interview that he's
friendly with the local bartenders, meaning in this case, the
bartender at the Hog's Head) who informed Albus the names of LV's
traveling companions and that they called themselves Death Eaters. I
agree that Aberforth is the Order member we haven't properly met
(Harry saw him at the funeral but didn't make the connection between
the Hog's Head barkeeper and Aberforth Dumbledore, whom I'm betting
*can* read--DD was just joking in implying that he wasn't sure his
brother could read, IMO--even Crabbe and Goyle can read or they
couldn't pass their Hogwarts classes, by however slim a margin, as can
Stan Shunpike, who reads the Daily Prophet). I agree that he'll be a
source of information on Snape and on Albus's background (Heir of
Gryffindor and owner of the now exploded cottage at Godric's Hollow,
I'm betting, with Aberforth as his successor). There's more, a lot
more, to the eccentric Aberforth than meets the eye. I don't expect,
though, that he'll be much help with Love magic. I think Harry has to
discover that power for, and within, himself.

Regarding other "useful spies" (besides Snape, Aberforth, Mrs. Figg,
Mundungus, and current spies such as Lupin who may not have been spies
during VW1), i think Dedalus Diggle, whose name keeps coming up, may
be one, as may Tom, the barkeeper at the Leaky Cauldron, and Mr.
Ollivander and Florean Fortescue. Mad-Eye wouldn't be a spy, exactly,
but he would certainly have kept DD informed about what was going on
with the Aurors. Perhaps Madam Bones was an informant (not informer)
regarding the Ministry. I'd go on, but it's just a list of names, so
not much point. If they're important, we'll find out about it. If
not... (I do wonder about Rosmerta, though. Was she also one of DD's
"useful spies," temporarily and perhaps unwittingly subverted by Draco
and his DE assistant(s)?)

Goddlefrood:
>There are no Dumbledores, Figgses, Hagrids or Grangers on the Black
Family Tapestry, if that's of any import. <snip>

Carol:
Or Snapes or Princes or Gaunts or Peverells. However, we only see a
small snippet of a tree that goes back a thousand years or so.
Essentially, what we see is Phineas Nigellus's descendants. But he's
far from the first in a long line of purebloods. And if Ron is right
that all of the purebloods are connected by blood or marriage, the
Gaunts and Peverells, at least, must be on there somewhere. The
Princes and Dumbledores may be as well, though with DD's Muggle
sympathies and interests (ten-pin bowling, chamber music, lemon
sherbets, Muggle newspapers) I suspect that he's a half-blood, whose
mother(?) had an interest in British legend and wizarding history.
(Can there be a connection between Godric Gryffindor and Merlin, who
lived backwards?)

Carol, who thinks she deserves an Order of Merlin seventh class for
making it through this entire post, footnotes and all