Say it isn't so Lupin!!!

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 170081

Carol:
> Interesting comparison. However, Hagrid is not a true giant, only a
> half-giant. Grawp might fit your analogy a bit better. (He was too
> "small" and was bullied by the giants. Now he's almost certainly an
> outcast, having been somewhat civilized by Hagrid.)

Dana:
I think the comparison fits Hagrid better then Grawp because Hagrid 
is part human while Grawp is not. Lupin is not just a werewolf but 
human too. 
Hagrid has sympathy for the giants because he is part giant himself.  
Lupin is a werewolf once a month and only during the full moon 
nights, it is not like he is werewolf all the time. Madam Maxim 
doesn't want to be associated with the giants and even denies she has 
a partly giant background. Harry sees Hagrid as a larger then normal 
human, while Draco sees him only for his giant part not worthy of 
being considered a human. Which happens to Lupin as well. 

Of course there is a difference as the giants are giants while the 
werewolves are just, like Lupin, part human but do not live as humans 
but consider them werewolves only.

Nevertheless in the war Hagrid's fight will have some dualism to it 
just like it would Lupin because fighting the giants as enemies is 
fighting a part of himself.  

Carol responds: 
> Lupin himself says nothing about "betraying his friends." He says 
> that he didn't want to admit that he had betrayed Dumbledore's 
> trust. Also, I don't see how admitting that his former friend 
> Sirius Black, whom he believes to have betrayed James and Lily to 
> their deaths, killed twelve Muggles, and murdered Peter Pettigrew, 
> is an Animagus and knows secret passages into the castle would be . 
> betraying his friends, especially since Black is believed to be out 
> to kill his own godson, James's son, Harry. 

Dana:
That is not entirely true because he also states this. 

PoA Pg 260/ 261 UKed Paperback chapter: "Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and 
Prongs"

`I sometimes felt guilty about *betraying Dumbledore's trust*, of 
course 
 he had admitted me to Hogwarts when no other Headmaster 
would have done so, and he had no idea I was *breaking the rules* he 
had set down for my own and others' safety. *He never knew* I had led 
three fellow students into becoming *Animagi illegally*. But I always 
forget my guilty feelings every time we sat down to plan our next 
month's adventure. And I haven't changed
 

`All this year, I have been battling with myself, wondering whether I 
should tell Dumbeldore that Sirius was an Animagus. But I didn't do 
it. Why? Because I was too cowardly. It would have meant admitting 
that I'd betrayed his trust while I was at school, *admitting that 
I'd led others along with me*
 

End quote canon. 
 
He then goes on about how much DD's trusts means to him and why but 
his keeping the secret of Sirius being an animagus was not just about 
him betraying DD's trust but also about his friends becoming animagi 
illegally for him and he did not led them to becoming animagi, that 
was their own decision. It would actually be the other way around 
that they led Lupin in betraying DD's trust by breaking the rules. 
Lupin did not stop it then because him having the adventures WITH his 
friends made him forget his guilty feelings because apart from his 
transformations, he was happier than I had ever been in his life (pg 
259). They did not only make the transformations bearable, but the 
best time of his life (pg 259). 

It was the only time Lupin had in his life that his werewolf side was 
something to enjoy instead of being feared (by himself). These things 
can not be separated and neither can him not wanting to lose DD's 
trust because DD's trust in Lupin was about DD giving him a chance as 
a human while he had been shunted all his adult life because of 
*what* he is (pg 261). 

That is why he denied Sirius being an animagus having anything to do 
with Sirius entering the castle and that he used Dark Arts he learned 
from LV to get inside instead. 
The conflict Lupin was dealing with was two folded; one him admitting 
that his werewolf part had been something enjoyable when he was young 
and that his friends were the once making it enjoyable because they 
had become animagi illegally and broke the school rules with him and 
the other part was for betraying DD's trust for giving him a chance 
to a normal live despite him being a werewolf. He did not want to 
betray that memory because it is the only part of having to deal with 
being a werewolf that ever felt good to him and it was his friends 
that made this possible. Besides this part of his past, his werewolf 
part has caused him nothing but misery. 
The dualism of these feelings made him make an illogical decision of 
blocking the possibility of Sirius using his animagus form to do evil 
deeds. 

His friends becoming animagi illegally and the reasons for the 
betrayal of DD when Lupin was young are not separable without it 
Lupin could not have betrayed the rules and safety measurements DD 
set out for him. Admitting it to DD WOULD be betraying that what his 
friends did for him as much as admitting he broke the rules himself. 
I have no doubt that if it had only concerned him and no one else 
that he would have had no problem telling DD but it wasn't. 

Carol:
> As for the secret that made his life worth living and gave him the
> best time he ever had, he knew himself that he was endangering the
> people of Hogsmeade. And how would admitting that his friends had
> become animagi out of friendship for him be betraying them?

Dana: 
Because it was them who made these adventures possible and who kept 
Lupin from actually harming others. Lupin would never have been able 
to roam Hogsmeade without them. He would never even have left the 
shack if they had not become animagi for him. What the marauders did 
was not just Lupin the werewolf doing these things but what they as a 
unit did. James and Sirius were as much responsible for leading Lupin 
to these dangerous situations as they were convinced that their 
animagus forms could keep a werewolf in check. You can't put all the 
blame onto Lupin's shoulders because he was the one posing the risk. 

It was a united decision that they could get away with it because 
James and Sirius could balance that risk. If Lupin would have been 
able to give them the slip then James and Sirius would have been as 
much to blame for it. Their arrogance of being able to control 
werewolf Lupin was as much part of the decision as it was Lupin's. 
All of them were thoughtless and all of them had an equal amount of 
responsibility in what they did. Lupin pulls all the responsibility 
of what happened in their school days upon himself and it makes it 
even harder for him to betray his friends. Should he have known 
better? Probably but as Sirius states to Harry, the risk is what 
would have made it fun for James.  

Carol: 
> If loyalty doesn't dissolve and friendship doesn't fade, why did
> Sirius and Remus suspect each other of being the spy? Why did Peter
> betray them all, especially James, for whose death (and his wife's
> death) he's as responsible as Voldemort and for Sirius's 
> imprisonment he's also largely responsible?

Dana:
The reasons for Sirius believing Remus was the spy is unknown but it 
is somewhat hinted in canon that Lupin only came to the conclusion 
after the Potters dead and not before. 

There are a few hints in canon that suggest this, one is after Harry 
asks Lupin if he knew Sirius. 

Pg 180 chapter: "The Patronus"

`Yes, I knew him,' he said shortly. `Or I thought I did. 
' 

Pg 252 chapter: "Cat, Rat and Dog"

`But then
' Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he 
was trying to read his mind, `
 why hasn't he shown himself before 
now? Unless –` Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though he was seeing 
something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see, ` – 
unless he was the one 
 unless you switched 
 without telling me?'

pg 253

You're wrong,' said Lupin. `I haven't been Sirius' friend for twelve 
years, but I am now
.

Pg 257

`There were witnesses who saw Pettigrew die,' he [Harry] said. `A 
whole street full of them
'

`Everyone thought Sirius killed Peter,' said Lupin nodding. `I 
believed it myself – until I saw the map tonight. 

Pg 267/ 268

`Harry,' said Lupin hurriedly,' don't you see? All this time we've 
thought Sirius betrayed your parents, and Peter tracked him down – 
but it was the other way around, don't you see? Peter betrayed your 
mother and father – Sirius tracked Peter down –`

Pg 153

So Black was the Potters' Secret- Keeper?' whispered Madam Rosmerta. 

`Naturally,' said Professor McGonagall. `James Potter told Dumbledore 
that Black would die rather then tell where they were, that Black was 
planning to go into hiding himself
 and yet, Dumbledore remained 
worried. I remember him offering to be the Potters' Secret Keeper 
himself.'

`He suspected Black?' gasped Madam Rosmerta. 

`He was sure that somebody close to the Potters had been keeping You –
 Know – Who informed on their movements,' said Professor McGonagall 
darkly. `Indeed, he had suspected for some time that someone on *our 
side* had turned traitor and was passing a lot of information to You –
 Know – Who.'

End quotes from canon. 

DD suspected someone within the Order close to the Potters to have 
turned traitor not that he suspected Sirius. The worry could easily 
have come from the traitor knowing that Sirius would be the SK and LV 
going after him and DD not being sure if anyone besides himself would 
be able to withstand LV's torture and why James stated that Sirius 
would rather die then to tell them where they were. The Potters 
agreeing to the switch seemed to be part of the same fear. If Sirius 
wasn't the SK then no matter how much he was going to be tortured he 
could not reveal the secret and if he died then LV would have 
believed the secret died with him. That was the bluff because they 
all believed that the spy would tell LV about who the SK was. Not 
telling anyone of them using the Fidelius Charm was not an option 
anyway to prevent the spy from making his own conclusion as to 
suddenly not knowing where the Potters where and Sirius being the 
Potters closest friend would then still make him the preferred choice 
for knowing where they possibly could be hiding with or without the 
Fidelius charm in place. 

Only after the location of the Potters was revealed, was it concluded 
that the SK also must have been the spy, especially because the SK 
lived to tell the tale. 
I do not think that Lupin was an exception in thinking Sirius was the 
spy before the evidence mounted against him. He knew Sirius' 
connection to James and why he states to Harry that he thought he 
knew him. 

Lupin's remark to Sirius about Sirius not telling him about the 
switch also seems to hint that Lupin did not suspect Sirius before 
but that Sirius being the SK is what made Lupin believe it was Sirius 
who betrayed the Potters and that he therefore was the spy as well. 

Lupin also believed that Sirius killed Peter because Peter tracked 
Sirius down because of Sirius being the only one who could have 
betrayed the Potters because he was thought to be the SK. Lupin did 
not know Peter knew more then he did. 

Maybe I'm making the wrong conclusions but it seems to me that DD did 
not tell anyone he suspected the traitor to be one of James's closest 
friends and why Sirius and James made Lupin the one to be the most 
likely to be the spy. We only see that they indeed suspected someone 
extremely close to them would be the spy and what made them decide to 
keep Lupin out of it. 

To give LV information on the Potters movements would only need the 
spy to have information about that but that does not specifically 
indicates that only Sirius, Lupin or Peter were the once that had 
this information about the Potters whereabouts before the Fidelius 
Charm was put in place and this is also not suggested by McGonagall 
when she states that DD suspected someone on their side to have 
turned traitor. It seems very unlikely that no other Order Member had 
interactions with the Potters then just these 3 people and DD 
himself. Otherwise DD could have just confronted all three of them 
about it and legilimens the truth out of them. 

Placing themselves under the Fidelius charm would protect them from 
anyone knowing their location through the SK but would still put the 
SK in harms way. 

The hints are very flimsy but I do not believe that James told Lupin 
that one of the marauders was the spy and why Lupin still believed 12 
years after the fact that he would have been told if they had changed 
the plan. Lupin seemed to have not known that James and Sirius 
believed him to be the spy and I do not think he discussed anything 
of the sort with James either about anyone else. He specifically 
tells the story in how everybody believed it to be Sirius, not that 
his suspicions were confirmed after the faithful night at GH that it 
had been Sirius all along. 

Peter's own loyalty to the marauders is never suggested in canon just 
that his friends believed him to be loyal. Lupin does state (see 
above) what made his friends so important to him as does Sirius. It 
is actually never suggested in canon that Peter considered them true 
friends and not just hero-worshiping them because it made him look 
cool to be around them and do fun things with them. We actually see 
he is merely a hanger on, drooling all over James. It is like fans 
when the one they idolizes falls out of fashion they move on to the 
next best thing. 

Carol:
> Lupin, AFAWK, believes that Sirius betrayed the Potters and is out 
> to kill Harry, and even if he secretly can't quite believe it, he 
> still owes it to Harry and to James to tell Dumbledore what he 
> knows. He certainly has no difficulty turning against Peter, even 
> offering to kill him, when he discovers that his "dead" friend was 
> actually the traitor, nor does Sirius, who has wanted to kill Peter 
> for twelve years. 

<snipped the rest of your post as you actually proof my point that 
Lupin should think of himself as a werewolf first and as a human 
second and that it are not his human mistakes that count but him not 
handling his illness in an appropriate manner) 

Dana:
I did not suggest that he secretly did not believe it wasn't so he 
merely didn't want to connect the past to the present. And why he did 
not want to connect the knowledge he had about Sirius past to be in 
any way responsible for Sirius actions in the present. That was a 
great error in judgment but that doesn't mean he was ready to hand 
Harry over to Sirius. Him easily turning against Peter is because the 
mounting evidence that made him believe that Sirius was the one who 
betrayed the Potters faded like snow in the sun. As I stated above I 
do not believe that Lupin believed Sirius was capable of betraying 
James but that the evidence against him forced Lupin to believe he 
indeed did the things he was accused off. Without the evidence there 
was only the disbelieve of Sirius's capability to betray James left 
and after Peter admitted it to be him that was taking away too. It 
was not like Lupin did not give Peter a chance to explain or defend 
himself. 

Sirius already knew it was Peter who betrayed the Potters because he 
was the one who suggested to make Peter the SK and who was the one 
that discovered Peter was missing from his hiding place without a 
struggle and then found the Potters house in ruins and the Potters 
dead. The both of them indeed wanted to kill Peter for what he had 
done but the both of them also were more loyal to Harry's whishes 
instead of acting out their revenge. 
Sirius escape was not just motivated to see Peter dead but actually 
was motivated to when he saw WHERE Peter was and with WHOM. Sirius 
could have broken out of Azkaban at any time he had whished, to track 
down Peter but he never did until he saw that Peter was within 
striking range of Harry. 
He went after Peter this time because it was only him who knew that 
Peter was still alive and that no one else would therefore be able to 
protect Harry against him. 

>From the impression I got, Sirius actually felt that he deserved the 
life he got and only later became bitter about not being able to be 
proven innocent when he realized the chance he had to be with Harry, 
got lost when Peter got away. And not so much because he no longer 
blamed himself but because he could not built up a normal 
relationship with Harry and be there for him as his Godfather as much 
as he wanted. When Sirius went after Peter the first time it was also 
only after he was denied to take care of Harry and felt he had lost 
everything. It was only after he met Harry that some hope relived of 
being part of his life. He considered his life already lost and 
probably thought that it did not matter anymore anyway and one thing 
he at least could do is make the man responsible for the Potters 
deads, pay with his life for the lives he had taken. 

JMHO

Dana