Narrative technique and the SK switch/DD's correspondence with Petunia

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 170100

Jen wrote:

>  I see, she deviates when there's a reason the story is outside
Harry's awareness. One thing JKR's made sure of since Voldemort
returned to his crude fetal form is that the reader gets information
about Voldemort's plan at some point early on. <snip>

Carol responds:

Right. The dream in GoF mechanism was one means of doing that
(otherwise, it's hard to see how we could get Frank Bryce's pov, which
is actually odd, anyway, since Harry isn't really inside Frank's
mind--he sees the old man die). In the case of "The Other Minister,"
there's no Harry connection at all. It's a device to let us know
what's going on in the Muggle world from a Muggle pov. (I also like
getting to see Fudge and Srimgeour from a pov other than Harry's, but
that's just me.)

Jen wrote:
> You mentioned it being unlikely for a Riddle House chapter and that
*is* hard to imagine since JKR would need an outsider listening in
providing the pov.

Carol:
right. That's why she used Frank Bryce. But actually, I was thinking
of the first part of that chapter, which is an almost-omniscient
narrator actually commenting on the action, not the distant dramatic
narrator of "Spinner's End" reporting a conversation from the outside,
but not like the usual third-person-limited narrator, either, because
there's no pov character, only the narrator filling in the background
with greater than usual authoritativeness, almost as if we're hearing
the author's own voice rather than a persona--or, at least, a wholly
different narrative voice than in the resto of the books, for this
flashback to fifty years before the main action of the story. It
really jumped out to me as I read it. (From what I've read, even some
teenage readers felt that they'd picked up the wrong book, wondering
what happened to Harry. They noticed that the chapter was different,
though they didn't understand the technical aspects involved (or JKR's
reasons for bringing in the riddle House at that time and in that
way). But what I meant by not expecting another "Riddle House" chapter
is that I don't expect another flashback with no pov character. I can
see Harry entering a bottled memory via the Pensieve, in which case it
would be presented from his pov, and I can envision (but don't expect)
another "Spinner's End"-style chapter presenting a present-day scene
from a dramatic pov (the characters seen from the outside with no pov
character), but a flashback to, say, Godric's Hollow with no pov
character seems unlikely. How would Harry find out about it? (How, for
that matter, will he find out what happened at Spinner's End? Surely,
it wasn't *just* for the reader's benefit. Harry, as protagonist, is
going to have to find out the truth about the Unbreakable Vow, at least.

Jen:
> Although I wonder if Draco could serve that function for a chapter
as one who appeared to be on the fence when we last saw him?  Also
bearing in mind the limited omniscient narrator gets to limit what
information is presented. ;)

Carol responds:
You know, I think that JKR once considered having Draco as an
occasional alternate pov, maybe so we could see Slytherin as he sees
it, and changed her mind. One chapter in SS/PS begins with something
like "Malfoy couldn't believe his eyes when Harry showed up in class
the next day" (quoted from memory, but it's right after Harry catches
the Remembrall and is made Seeker for Gryffindor). Also, there's that
unfortunately discarded chapter depicting a conversation between Draco
Malfoy and Theodore Nott, in which Draco is almost certainly the pov
character since we know him so much better than we know the minor
character Theo Nott and since Draco at that point is Harry's
"archenemy." So I certainly wouldn't rule out the possibility of a
chapter from Draco's pov, but I'd be on the watch for the unreliable
narrator if we get such a chapter since it will certainly involve
Snape, whose motives Draco can't possibly fully understand. Or we
could get a conversation between Draco and Harry in which Draco's
interpretation of events (and Snape) is, again, not wholy reliable,
but I don't see how that's possible considering Draco's status as
fugitive from "justice" (and Voldemort?). I can't see him showing up
on the Weasleys' doorstep begging to be hidden, and he can't possibly
show up at 12 GP because the Fidelius Charm is still in effect.

> Jen:  I agree with how the information will be presented and want to
add that hopefully Petunia will have all this memorabilia hidden 
under the creaky stair, an oddity in her otherwise perfect home. <snip>

Carol:
Brilliant! That creaky stair has been mentioned so often (as has the
floorboard under Harry's bed where he hides things) that I should have
put two and two together. I'll bet you're right. any other Chekhov's
guns while we're at it?

Jen:
> 
> Secondly, why would Dumbledore suspect Sirius in particular when
Lupin was the one suspected by everyone else?  <snip>

Carol:
Because sirius is the one that James insisted should be the Secret
Keeper. An if he's the spy/traitor as well as the SK, the Potters are
in big trouble (as turns out to be the case when Pettigrew, unknown to
DD, is the traitor/spy/Secret Keeper. Certainly, DD didn't want
*Hagrid* (whom he admittedly didn't inform specifically about Sirius
being the SK) to turn Harry over to him and made sure that he brought
Harry to the Dursleys instead. So I think that his suspicions centered
on Sirius from the moment that the Potters chose him rather than DD
himself as SK--and stayed there until he found out the truth during
PoA. Also, I think that Peter was spreading distrust among the
Marauders to cause Remus and Sirius to distrust each other while
insinuating himself into James's good graces (suggested by the Order
photo where he's sitting between James and Lily). I don't think that
"everyone else" suspected Remus, only Sirius and James (and maybe Lily).

Alternatively, and now I'm speculating wildly, Petunia could have
known Sirius ("that awful boy"?) as James's best friend (who turned up
his nose at Lily's Muggle sister, which would be sufficient reason for
thinking him "awful"). She may even have attended Lily's wedding
(unknown to Vernon?) and have been aware that he was James's best man.
Or DD could have mentioned in the letter tucked inside Harry's blanket
that Harry must be kept from his godfather, Sirius Black, at all
costs. It just seems to me that Petunia, unlike Vernon, has some idea
who sirius Black is--that he's a wizard and that he's specifically a
danger to Harry (or so DD thinks). And since DD's "last" is the letter
in the blankets and not a more recent communication, the reference to
Sirius Black must be in either that letter or one just before it
warning Petunia of the danger to Lily and her family.

Jen:
The only possible reason I can think of from the text would be that
Snape attempted to persuade Dumbledore of that fact since Snape
believed James died, 'too arrogant to believe [he] might be mistaken
in Black.'  Why was James too arrogant to see the 'truth' unless
someone had attempted to convince him otherwise and he refused to
believe it?

Carol:
Yes, that's what I think, too. I think Snape suspected Black, and DD,
possibly remembering the so-called Prank and James's insistence on
having Black as SK, shared his suspicions. I agree that Snape's remark
about James's "arrogance" in not believing he could be mistaken about
Black reflects his rejection of Snape's belief (most likely conveyed
through Dumbledore) to black was the traitor and the accompanying
refusal to allow DD as the SK.
> 
Jen:
> I do think it possible Petunia knew of Sirius Black from overhearing
Lily and James if James was 'that awful boy' or that Sirius was the
'awful boy' in question, called that because he was revealed as a 
killer to Petunia in POA and Harry did nothing to keep the Dursleys
from thinking Sirius was a 'dangerous murderer' in GOF in order to use
his godfather's name as leverage.  

Carol:
Or Petunia already knew of Black because of that conversation and
already thought he was "awful" because he treated her contemptuously
as a mere Muggle. (I know we have no evidence of that, but I think he
would strike her as arrogant at the least.) So she'd be as ready as
Snape, almost, to think badly of him when she heard that he'd betrayed
them. The jump from the conversation alone to seeing him on TV as an
escaped murderer and fearing he'd be coming to Privet Drive seems too
great (to me) unless she also knew that he supposedly betrayed the
Potters to their deaths. (She wouldn't need to know about the Fidelius
Charm per se. In fact, that would certainly be more than she needed to
know.)

> Jen:  I feel sure there was protection offered since Dumbledore
thought Voldemort's supporters, 'almost as terrible as he,' would be
looking for Harry.  Although it's such a circular situation to me! 
Taking Harry in means more danger for the Dursleys and the *need* for
protection in the first place, so why not refuse Harry?  The only
things I can suggest are 1) Dumbledore suspected Petunia and family 
were already known to LV and his DEs and were in danger regardless of
taking in Harry or not or 2) there's *some* reason Petunia did it for
Lily. <snip>

Carol:
I generally agree, except that I don't think even Petunia, much as she
hated the position she was placed in by taking in Harry, could refuse
to take in her baby nephew (or niece, if that were the case) if there
was no alternative, if by refusing, she'd become an accessory to the
murder of an innocent and helpless child. It's rather like Snape
hating eleven-year-old Harry but not wanting him dead and doing
everything he could to protect him while still resenting him deeply.
Petunia certainly isn't a very good person, but she isn't evil, IMO.
And we see her human side very clearly when she meets Harry's eyes
after the Dementor incident in OoP, and for the first time in their
relationship, they understand each other. That's an important moment,
IMO, and I think it will bear fruit in HBP, especially if Harry and
his friends save Petunia from grave danger in DH.

Jen:

>  I suggested that in my first post and others thought that the 
Potters didn't expect Harry to live if they themselves died.  The 
Invisibility cloak is more canon for the possibility that the Potters
did think Harry might outlive them and also suggests the Potters were
aware 'marked as his equal' implied Harry wouldn't necessarily die
according to the prophecy. <snip>

Carol:
Sorry about that. It's hard to remember who said what. I agree that
the Potters did somehow expect Harry to live or there would have been
no point in giving DD the Invisibility Cloak to hold for Harry, and
how they could know or suspect that unless they knew about the
Prophecy, at least its general implications if not the specifics, I
can't guess. James wouldn't need it if he was under the Fidelius Charm
(and stayed in the house), but there's no point in giving it to DD
(who doesn't need it) unless he's trusting DD with a valuable
possession that Harry as "the one with the power to defeat the Dark
Lord" will someday need. I wonder if the Potters also gave DD the key
to their Gringotts vault (and authorization to get gold from it for
Harry) at that time, too. Otherwise, how did DD rather than Sirius end
up with the key? It seems they expected DD to survive regardless of
what happened to them and their intended SK.

> Jen:  Yes, my initial wondering was whether Lily thought the Muggle
world would be a safer place. 

Carol:
Certainly, it couldn't have been any *less* safe than the WW, and it
would be easier to hide Harry there than in the smaller WW, with
someone as conspicuous as DD or Sirius Black. She may even have felt
(just guessing now!) that it would be best for Harry to grow up as she
had, completely unaware of the WW until he got his Hogwarts letter. It
may have seemed like a safer, happier world than the Voldie-wracked
WW. Just a thought, but she seems to have had a happy childhood and
what could be safer, she'd think, than an ordinary neighborhood like
the one she grew up in? (Assuming that their home was anything like
the Dursleys' home on Privet Drive.) At any rate, if DD is acting on
Lily's wishes, he seems a lot less presumptuous than he does as the
wise old man who decides what's best for everybody. (Not that I ever
objected to his decision, but I know a lot of posters do.)

Jen: 
> I have pondered how Lily felt about Sirius as Harry's godfather.
Brave yes, utterly loyal to James especially, but the recklessness? 
That might give a mom pause!  I decided that in their particular 
situation, the main critera would be someone willing to die to ensure
Harry lived and both agreed Sirius met that criteria.  Although the 
fact that Dumbledore did have a correspondence with Petunia and
Harry's future seems at least one possibility, I'd say Dumbledore and
maybe Lily wondered whether Sirius would be able to fulfill his duties
for whatever reason.  (That's speculation on top of speculation but
I'm going to put it out there anyway. <g>)

Carol:
I think that Lily had no objection to making Sirius Harry's godfather,
but that's not the same as guardian. I can't see her thinking that
Sirius would be a safe guardian, whatever James thought, especially
after the decision to make him Secret Keeper. My guess is that Lily
informed DD of Petunia as a back-up guardian just in case. I've been
criticized for this view before, but I just can't see the recklessly
courageous Sirius suddenly developing a domestic side and raising
Harry unaided when he'd rather be out fighting the bad guys. Is he
supposed to fly to Africa on his motorcycle, taking Harry with him,
and stay out of the Voldie War? I think Lily would have much preferred
leaving Lily in the safer, quieter Muggle world with her sister and
her husband and their baby son close to Harry's own age, even if he
wouldn't be loved quite as much as Dudley, to the dangers of leaving
him with the loyal and courageous but hot-tempered and reckless Sirius
Black, who was  likely to put himself and therefore Harry, in danger.
So Lily, I think, must have consulted with DD, giving him info on
Petunia as a back-up plan. Maybe she rather than James gave DD the key
to their vault.

Carol, just guessing now because we know so very little about Lily