Snape - a werewolf bigot?? Was: Say it isn't so Lupin!!!

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 170139

Mike:
> It's funny, how Hagrid can call Filch a "sneakin' Squib" and that is 
> called a prejudicial remark, yet when Snape makes his numerous snide 
> werewolf comments and calls Lily Evans a "filthy Mudblood", they are 
> put down to situational animosity. What, praytell, was Snape's 
> animosity against the girl who seemed to be trying to stop the 
> bullying?
> 
> I agree with Sherry, Snape has outed himself as a bigot, or at the 
> very least, has freely used bigotted speech. We get one look at 
> things in the Marauder's school days, in SWM, after which James and 
> Sirius are branded as bullies, as in, they must have done that 
> before. But Snape's use of the word "Mudblood" has to be an 
> aberration?! IMO this is a blatant double standard. If James and 
> Sirius must have been picking on Snape for years, why shouldn't we 
> also believe that Snape has used that highly offensive term before?
> 
Carol responds:

But Hagrid *does* place a great deal of importance on blood, both in
terms of relationships and in terms of how it makes people what they
are, in his view. "Whatever yeh say, blood's important," he says to
Harry at the time that Grawp is beating him up. And he talks about
"all Malfoys" as being bad because of their "bad blood." I'm not sure
that he's generally prejudiced against Squibs, but he's certainly
using it as a generalized insult against Filch, for whom, no doubt, he
has some sort of personal antipathy, and, unlike Teen!Severus calling
Lily a Mudblood--at which she blinks in surprise--he is not under
duress, humiliatingly being rescued by a Gryffindor girl who has just
been flirting with his tormentor. If you've never used language that
you're not proud of when you're angry and humiliated, then you're a
better person than I am. Hagrid, as a "good guy," does a number of
questionable things, but because he's the Trio's friend and the person
who introduced Harry to the WW, we're not supposed to criticize him?

Also, while calling someone a Mudblood is comparable to calling them a
 "sneakin's Squib" (or "a filthy Half-blood," as I think Phineas
Nigellus calls Mundungus Fletcher), calling someone a werewolf when
that werewolf has endangered your life, is endangering his own
students, and has (Snape thinks) helping a murderer get near Harry to
kill him, and then that werewolf has the nerve to think that Snape's
suspicions of him are based, not on his own sneaky conduct and the two
knife attacks by Sirius Black's on Gryffindor property but on "a
schoolboy grudge," it is certainly understandable that Snape would say
that he doesn't understand how a werewolf's mind works and that he'll
"drag the werewolf," who certainly needs to be in very strong bonds if
he's going to transform into a vicious monster at any moment.

In any case, prejudice against werewolves is not only extremely
widespread, almost universal, among witches and wizards, at least
those who grew up in the WW and know what a werewolf can do, it's
understandable, just as understandable as the "prejudice" against
giants, who turn out to be exactly like Ron said they'd be, murdering
even their own kind.

Anyway, it may not be right to speak of Remus Lupin to his face as
"the werewolf," but considering that Snape has faced him in the form
of a murderous monster and thinks he's an accessory to a "murderin'
traitor," it seems just silly to call him a "werewolf bigot." As for
the pureblood superiority ethic, there's no evidence that he believes
it (calling Lily a "Mudblood," which he does once, is IMO no worse
than the personal, and to me revolting, insult "Snivellus," which
Sirius Black uses repeatedly, even as an adult. (It's not an insult to
a group and therefore it's okay? I think not. It's as mean-spirited
and snide and cruel as anything in the books.) And as others have
said, "Half-Blood Prince" suggests a kind of reverse pride, a way of
telling himself that he's just as good as the "Pureblood Princes" (if
he's *the* Half-blood Prince, he has to be the only one. It would be
like Tonks calling herself "the Half-Blood Black" if she were
concerned about her family being shunned by the Blacks because her
mother married a Muggle-born).

At any rate, Snape is only one of many wizards who shows some form of
prejudice, some of it understandable, but he's criticized because he's
Snape and a Slytherin, and Hagrid is excused because he's Hagrid and a
Gryffindor. And MWPP are praised because they thought it was "cool" to
run with a werewolf and learned to become Animagi to do it, but they,
too, treat "Moony" as a werewolf. Everything from this nickname to
their response to the DADA exam and their idea of fun (not counting
attacking fellow students who are studying the exam questions,
Hermione-style) relates to that. They certainly didn't hesitate to
assume that he was the spy later, and why would they think that
(Peter's presumed whisperings and insinuations aside) if he weren't a
werewolf?

> Mike:
> As you say further down and Carol brought up in another post, Snape
has a real fear of werewolves, founded or unfounded, and a hatred for
what almost happened at the jaws of this particular werewolf. So is it
bigotry, or can it more accurately be called rational, in Snape's 
mind, distrust of anything werewolf? I would say that Snape is freely
using a bigotted term out of a perceived rational hatred for a member
of the oppressed group. Like you said, wynnleaf, much like an 
adolescent would do.
> 
Carol responds:
Bear in mind Snape's mental state. He thinks he's just saved the kids'
lives, and he's being taunted about a "schoolboy grudge" (a murder
plot, in his view) distorting his view of the facts. That was not a
smart move on Lupin's part if he wanted Snape to be reasonable. I
think all of them, even Lupin, are reduced to adolescent level in this
 situation. But I still don't think that "werewolf" is a bigoted term.
It's a fact. Lupin, as both he and Hermione state, *is* a werewolf.
Moreover, he's about to transform, has not taken his potion, and is a
danger to everyone present. Under ordinary circumstances, before and
after this incident, Snape does not go around addressing Lupin as
"werewolf," nor, IIRC, does he mention it again after he learns the
truth of the situation (when he learns that Pettigrew has restored
Voldemort to a body and soon afterwards Black transforms in front of
him in GoF, at which point has no choice but to fully believe that
Pettigrew, not Sirius Black, was the traitor and Pettigrew really is
not only alive but a rat Animagus.) Yes, he "lets slip" to his
students that Lupin is a werewolf, but by that time Lupin has no
choice but to resign, having endangered three students by rushing out
without taking his potion, knowing that they're on the grounds. (And
Fudge already knows that Snape has conjured stretchers for the
students to get them safely off the grounds where a werewolf is at
large. Is he supposed to lie to Fudge about their very real danger
because to state, under those circumstances that Lupin is a werewolf
is "prejudice"? I think not.

wynnleaf:
> > To me, it's a little similar to Snape's mudblood comment. There
isn't any other instance in canon to really support Snape being a
pureblood elitist -- his Half Blood Prince name implies the opposite.
 It seems far more likely to me that he used the term just because it
was an available weapon at hand to use, not because he really had any
problem with Lily being muggleborn.
> 
> Mike:
> Here I disagree. We *have* only one instance in canon from Snape's
school days. <snip> Draco doesn't call Hermione a Mudblood every time
he's in close proximity to her, yet we are all convinced of his
pure-blood superiority beliefs. 


Carol:
You disagree that he's only used the term once, and not as an adult in
canon? Um, I don't know what to say. there's no other instance. And
there are plenty of instances of Draco calling Hermione a Mudblood,
from that first insult that provokes Ron's back-firing slug spell to
"Pyou're next, Mudbloods!" (the remarks that cause ron and Harry to
suspect Draco of being Slytherin's Heir) to "Mudbloods and traitors
will be first" (after Cedric Diggory) at the end of GoF to "the
Mudblood Granger" on the tower in HBP. I haven't checked, but I
suspect that Draco uses the term at least once per book, and "blood
traitor" for Ron almost as frequently. *Of course,* we're all
convinced of Draco's pureblood superiority beliefs. Almost the very
first thing he says is that he doesn't think "the other kind" (wizards
and witches with Muggle parents) should be allowed at Hogwarts. Or how
about, "If you want to know what that smell is, Mother, a Mudblood
just walked in" (HBP, the scene in Madam Malkin's, quoted from
memory). Draco has been raised by parents who believe in their own
pureblood superiority, a mother from the same family as Walburga Black
who considers the Blacks "nature's aristocracy" and screams about
"Mudbloods and blood traitors and filth" contaminating her house, to
believe in his own pureblood superiority. The surprise is that Sirius
and Andromeda rejected the same propaganda (and Andromeda actually
married a Muggleborn).

Never once does Snape use either term as an adult, and his Half-blood
status would cause him to *know* that he's as smart and skilled at
magic as any pureblood, including the two who attack him unawares in
the Pensieve memory. He's going to think that purebloods like Sirius
Black and James Potter are better than he is? I doubt it very much.
And if he grew up with "pureblood Prince" relatives who held views
similar to those of the Blacks, they'd have looked down their hooked
noses at the little Half-Blood. I doubt very much that Snape's views
on blood at all resemble Draco's--though he certainly shares the view
of almost all witches and wizards that they should be kept separate
and secret from Muggles. (Aside: Wouldn't it violate the Statute of
Secrecy to marry a Muggle and tell your Muggle wife or husband that
you're a witch or wizard? And yet, they're going to find out anyway
and have the right to know. What a potential source of marital discord!)
> 
Mike:
> But we have a one-for-one correlation with Severus and Lily and the
 use of "Mudblood". Until I'm informed differently, I'm calling Snape
a bigot on this account. There is a lot of water under the bridge
since that utterance, yet Snape has no problem using another bigotted
term in PoA. Now, where's the canon that proves he's not a bigot?

Carol:

Where's the canon that shows he is? "Prejudice" against werewolves,
which are undeniably dangerous when they transform, is not the same as
unfounded prejudice based on the presence or absence of magic in the
"blood" of someone's parents or grandparents. To be blunt, a
werewolf's blood *is* contaminated through no fault of his own; a
"Mudblood's" isn't "dirty"; it's just the same as any other wizards,
or Muggleborns couldn't pass on their magic to their children. (I'm
ignoring genes and chromosomes here and taking the old-fahioned view
that inherited traits are passed through the blood.) It's like saying:
Mr. X is prejudiced against convicte child molestors released into
society, so he must be prejudiced against blacks or Mexican immigrants
as well. It does not compute. Nor does one slip into a common insult
mean you're prejudiced. If you a teenager being humiliated by a school
bully and a girl with a crush on the bully tried to rescue you and in
your anger, you said, "I don't need help from that b---ch," perhaps
regretting your words later, would that make you prejudiced against
girls in general? He's angry, he's using a word that will sting, and
he's not even speaking to Lily (whose surprise shows that he's not in
the habit of using the wor; she would not have tried to help him is he
were); it's directed to James.

In contrast, the Malfoys, Blaize Zabini, even the substitute Seeker
(Harper?) in HBP use terms like "Mudblood" freely. Snape uses it once,
under duress. Even Slughorn, who doesn't use that term, is surprised
to find a Muggleborn who's good at Potions (first Lily and then
Hermione, whom he subsequently forgets about because he's busy
favoring the "brilliant" Harry). The only reason that Snape gives for
disliking Hermione is that she's "an insufferable know-it-all"--and
though he shouldn't say that, he's right. I'd find her very annoying
if I were her teacher. (Let someone else answer the question!)

> Mike:
> Which brings up another point regarding Lupin and Snape. Why 
> shouldn't Lupin be just as suspicious of Snape as Snape is of Lupin? 
> They all knew that Snape was "fascinated by the Dark Arts, he was 
> famous for it at school." That he ran around with a "gang of 
> Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." And that 
> even though Snape was never accused of being a DE (Sirius is wrong 
> here), that Snape was "clever and cunning enough to keep himself out 
> of trouble." <all GoF p.531, US> Ergo, Lupin should have suspected 
> that Snape had been and could still be a Death Eater.

Carol responds:
Why in the world would Lupin be suspicious of Snape? It makes sense
for Snape to suspect Lupin of trying to help Sirius Black, but *Snape*
isn't going to do it. He knows that Snape suspects *him* and he *is*
suppressing information, but Snape is doing his best to keep Harry in
Hogwarts and away from Sirius Black. An interest in the Dark Arts
(really DADA and some invented hexes and charms, from what we've
seen--Lupin can't know about Sectumsempra unless we count the little
cut that no one notices, which I don't--is hardly reason for
suspicion, and Lupin doesn't know that Snape was a DE. He does,
however, think that *Sirius Black* became a DE. and he knows that
snape is not about to help Black. Can you give me the smallest shred
of evidence that Lupin suspects Snape of having been a DE before OoP,
when it seems that the entire Order knows he's spying on the DEs?
Black doesn't know it until Snape shows his Dark Mark to Fudge in GoF,
and he's been in Azkaban with Death Eaters. Rita Skeeter doesn't know
it or she'd list him as one of DD's dangerous hiring choices. As far
as Lupin knows, Snape is a childhood enemy who knows he's a werewolf
but is keeping his mouth shut and making him perfectly brewed
Wolfsbane Potion on DD's orders and who suspects him (wrongly) of
helping Sirius Black get into the castle (and of providing Harry the
means to get into Hogsmeade). "In a way, Snape has been right about me
all along" is his confession that he's withheld information from
Dumbledore. Nothing anywhere to suggest that Lupin thinks Snape is
doing anything worse than drawing the wrong conclusions based on a
"schoolboy grudge."

Mike: 
> Snape has a secret from his younger days that others may be 
interested in also. Snape overheard a certain prospective divination
teacher make a prophesy and reported that news to his boss. How many 
> people died from this *secret*? By my count, two. So who has the 
> moral high ground at the time of PoA, Snape or Lupin? Lupin made 
> mistakes, Snape made mistakes. Which ones mistakes were more costly?
<snip> 

Carol:
Which ones *could* have been more costly if Lupin had attacked a
Hogsmeade resident or HRH in werewolf form or Sirius Black had really
been out to murder Harry? DDM!Snape's mistake (and I concede that it
was a *very* serious mistake, as was joining the DEs in the first
place), which he tried to rectify by going to DD, would not have led
to the loss of any lives if it hadn't been for Peter Pettigrew (and
Sirius Black's mistake in making Pettigrew the Secret Keeper). And
Snape's and Black's combined mistake, combined with Pettigrew's
treachery, ironically led to the creation of the Chosen One who can
defeat Voldemort and to thirteen years of peace for the WW. somehow, I
don't count running around in werewolf form with a bunch of Animagus
friends endangering the townspeople and then not telling DD what he
knows about the supposed murderer Black because he doesn't want to
reveal this youthful indiscretion the moral high ground. Lupin, like
Draco in HBP, is very lucky that no one died because of him. And
Snape, assuming DDM!Snape, tried to prevent the Potters' deaths and is
still trying to protect Harry. Setting aside the tower because we
still don't know what's up with that, I give Snape the moral high
ground. He rightly sees Lupin as weak.
>
> Mike:
> I think Lupin uses a rudimentary or passable form of Legilmency, on
several occasions. But I don't remember any time that he's credited 
with using Occlumency. I realize these two are closely related 
disciplines, but it seems that Occlumency is the more difficult to 
master. I just don't get the feeling that Lupin is that good at 
Legilemency and probably very poor if at all able with Occlumency.
Besides, Snape has shown an aptitude for detecting when someone is 
trying to use Occlumency against him. JMHO.

Carol:
Isn't there a reference somewhere to "an odd, closed expression" on
Lupin's face, which might suggest Occlumency of some sort? But he's
certainly not the "superb Occlumens" that Snape is or he'd have
offered to teach Harry Occlumency himself, and I don't remember any
other hints that Lupin is an Occlumens, so I agree with your basic
position here. But we do have hints that Lupin has some skill at
Legilimency (seeming to read Sirius Black's mind in the Shrieking
Shack, for example), and I would not be surprised if he received a
mental message from Snape about Neville's prospective Boggart being a
Death Eater in PoA. If so, poor Snape. Wrong again, with unpleasant
consequences for himself. But the message could have served its
purpose in getting Lupin to think about *Harry's* prospective Boggart
and how to deal with it. Or rather, not deal with it at all until
Harry brought up the subject in private.

Carol, who thinks that Snape has enough faults without making him any
more of a bigot than the general wizarding population