Choices of life - Abilities or other qualities/Snape-a werewolf bigot? Say it is

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 170247

Magpie:
> I think it's a little much to say they were "sufficient." Lupin 
> says they had some close calls, and luck played a part. MWPP's idea 
> of what was sufficient was clearly different than what the school 
> thought was sufficient.
<snip>

Dana:
I meant that it proved to him as *a kid* that these precautions were 
sufficient and why they all laughed about it afterwards because they 
got away with it. Adult Lupin does no longer feel or think about it 
in the same way. 

Magpie:  
> An important thing to remember, too, about the situation as it is, 
> is that nobody is agreeing to the safety precautions like they do 
> on a plane. Lupin's condition is a secret--nobody's agreed to these 
> precautions for their kids. Of course it's only secret because of 
> unfair discrimination to begin with, so he's between a rock and a 
> hard place, but still all these things are keeping it from being 
> the ideal situation. 

Dana:
You do not either for planes you assume that the company flying you 
to your destination has taken the right precautions. You are not 
agreeing on failed or clumsy maintenance or design failures, 
incompetent personnel ect. Just like you assume that the school you 
are sending your kids is safe for these kids. Lupin even if he ran 
through the school would never be able to get into the different 
dorms as he can't say the passwords and therefore he would only be a 
risk to students breaking the rules and are out of bed after hours. 
To say he could have brought the entire student body into danger if 
he ran through the castle is not totally correct either and the 
teachers knew he was a werewolf so they could increase security on 
students not being out of bounds during full moon nights. To put the 
safety of the students only Lupin's responsibility is going a little 
to far in my opinion. 

Magpie:
> You seem to be wanting it both ways here, though. The "what ifs" 
> are irrelevent when it's "what if Lupin had attacked someone when 
> he was running around loose as a werewolf?" but important when 
> it's "what if he hadn't seen Peter on the map and had not run out 
> without taking his Potion?" The "what ifs" are the whole point of 
> the precautions--and unfortunately in a situation where people 
> would probably demand very tight security, Lupin's record is 
> relatively bad. It turned out the whole precautionary system failed 
> because there was a surprising incident.
<snip>

Dana:
The "what if" are irrelevant to how events actually played out. You 
cannot go back (without a time-turner that is) and chance things so 
that they did happen according to the "what if". The precautions are 
just that, precautions to something that could happen in an unset 
future. That is not what I was revering too. Everything that is said 
about what could have happen did not happen but what did happen is 
that Sirius was there and prevented Lupin from causing any harm. 

If we truly look at the "what if's" and make assumptions accordingly 
then one should also make assumptions on the ability of Lupin getting 
into the castle. The doors are closed at night and therefore who says 
they would have led him in? A werewolf is rated as a dark creature so 
Sirius getting passed the door can't be used as an indication that if 
he could then so could Lupin.

The same goes for him not telling DD, Sirius is an animagus. Who says 
that it would have led to Sirius capture? It is speculation that 
Lupin telling DD would have taken a way the risk Harry was in. Sirius 
being an animagus had nothing to do with him not getting passed the 
Fat Lady and it had nothing to do with him eventually getting into 
the Gryffindor tower as he had the passwords and thus DD having the 
knowledge of Sirius being an animagus might not actually have 
prevented these events either. It certainly did not have to mean that 
what happened that night would not have happened either. It would 
again be a "what if" or even a "might have". 

You can speculate on the "what if's" until you turn purple in the 
face but the outcome of events as they stands never chance. You can 
only speculate on intentions/ motives people had for their actions, 
you can speculate on the details of how events unfolded and they can 
still vary as more information through the books become known (well 
until the final installment is in place that is) but nothing more 
then that. And if you want to judge Lupin by the mistakes he makes 
then to me it should be placed in the right context and not pull, 
every single thing that could have happened, into it. 
Lupin takes responsibility for his mistakes by resigning because the 
idea of what could have happened hunts him and it should but to make 
statements like he could have killed half the student body if he had 
roamed the castle is just having a figurative imagination for doom 
scenario's without actually taking into account that he might not 
have been able to get into caslte in the first place and the risk he 
possed to the people he was with was taken away by Sirius that is the 
facts. That doesn't mean that Lupin should not take responsibility 
but to convict him on things that did not happen goes way to far to 
me too. 

But lets not forget that it was not his judgment that made him a 
teacher at Hogwarts that responsibility lies with DD, it were not 
safety precautions Lupin put in place but DD and so it is not Lupin 
that should have thought about everything that might happen in future 
events but DD. 

Also to state that Lupin's record is bad because Sirius revealed the 
secret of how to get passed the willow is putting responsibilities 
into Lupin's shoes for what another boy did. It is like stating it is 
Sirius fault that the Potters are dead because he suggested switching 
to Peter while first of all the Potters agreed themselves to the 
switch and it is not Sirius fault that Peter betrayed them. 

The marauders all knew these safety precautions were put in place for 
a reason and Peter being the smallest could have found out how to get 
passed the willow without Lupin ever telling them. They all broke the 
rules and they all were ignorant to the risks. All of them could 
equally have paused and thought what they were doing was to dangerous 
but none of them did. You can't say that it was only Lupin that 
caused the risk but also his friends that made it possible for Lupin 
even getting out of the safety precautions put in place for him. If 
he actually had been able to get out on his own then DD's safety 
precautions failed regardless of the marauders being there and Lupin 
could not have been held accountable if he had gotten out on his own 
while in his werewolf form. So it were James, Sirius and Peter that 
exposed a werewolf to the outside world something Lupin only could 
have been opposed to in his human form and he had no human thoughts 
when he is a werewolf and therefore can't make human decisions. And 
yes they were arrogant they all were for thinking they could get away 
with it and fortunately they indeed did and nothing seriously 
happened not even in the Snape incident as James prevented that from 
unfolding too. 

Magpie:
> Bad analogy. Like it or not, with Lupin we're talking about an 
> actual danger to others which is embodied (at times) in Lupin 
> himself. It's not about punishing Lupin (which is what it would be 
> with Hagrid--the proper precaution in that case is just to not rely 
> on Hagrid to keep important information if it's important it not 
> get out) but keeping other people safe. In trying to strike a 
> balance between Lupin's right to live a full life and other 
> peoples' rights to not be in danger from a werewolf, compromises 
> are going to need to be made--so far they haven't found the right 
> one. There were far more security measures around the stone than 
> there ever were around Lupin, and the thing that broke through them 
> was an even remoter possibility.
<snip>

First of all it was not Lupin's call to keep him being a werewolf a 
secret. He did not apply for the job and then was hired on the 
promise that he would do anything to be safe but DD asking him to 
take the job. Lupin trusts DD's judgement that he could safely teach 
but neither DD or Lupin could have foreseen what happened on that 
night. 

Maybe it is a bad analogy and I should have used a different one. DD 
was also the one that placed the stone within Hogwarts which would 
certainly attracted the person going after it. DD took safety 
precautions to keep the one who was after the stone away from it but 
how much were the students safe from not being used as leverage to 
trade for the stone? He then even uses a person's dog that can't keep 
a secrets on how to get passed that dog. 

Both cases involve only the trio (well in PoA also Snape) that were 
in immediate danger for werewolf Lupin and the intruder. And under 
normal circumstances in both cases these kids would not have been put 
in danger at all because if nothing had happened that made Lupin rush 
out then he certainly would not have forgotten his potion. Besides 
the potion is not even at issue here. It is actually Lupin forgetting 
the time and coming out of the tunnel with the rest of them. Because 
if he had remembered that then he could have chosen to stay behind 
with or without the potion. No one was used as leverage in PS so it 
never happened and therefore it is not an issue and neither is Lupin 
putting anyone in danger because Sirius was there and if Sirius 
hadn't been there then Lupin would not have been out that night not 
even if he had seen Peter on the map because he would have dealt with 
that in less time and thus having time enough to take his potion and 
be safe. 

The issue, not even that night, was never if Lupin could safely teach 
at Hogwarts because he could. These events occurred not during the 
school day time but at night time and under very rare circumstances 
that no one could have ever foreseen, especially not Lupin himself. 

Magpie:
> Of course, the neat thing about Lupin and many in his generation 
> is: How much did he wise up? He understood the danger enough to be 
> guilty and worry about it when he was a kid, but covered his doubts 
> to be with his friends. When he returns he's kind of doing the same 
> thing. He's no longer running around as a werewolf so shouldn't be 
> blamed for doing so, but stressing how much it "never led to 
> anything" makes me feel *less* confident about Lupin and not more. 

Dana:
He is not doing the same thing because what happened during his 
schooldays and that specific night in PoA are totally different. 
Lupin did not state he did not think about what could have happened 
and that the thoughts are still hunting him and he takes 
responsibility for what happened the night in PoA as he should. I'm 
only referring to people brooding on the "what if's" and that he 
therefore is not entitled to a normal life. 

No one is always able to prevent dangerous situations. DD tries to 
take safety precautions for Harry and most of them fail miserably and 
it doesn't matter if DD posses a threat himself or if the threat 
comes from an outside source, a threat is still a threat. To make 
Lupin more responsible for things that did not happen then he already 
takes upon himself, is to me unfairly judging the character or even 
any person that has to deal with problems that have a possible 
negative affect on other people. The mistakes Lupin made that night 
were not werewolf Lupin making these mistakes but human Lupin and 
were not part of his human weakness. 

We all make mistakes that can directly posse a threat to another 
human being as I stated with the car example or indirectly by for 
instance clearing a plane that should not get into the air and you 
assume to be safe because it is cleared if nothing happens these 
people do not even take the responsibility of what could have 
happened like Lupin does and only when something bad does happen 
comes it to light. 

A friend of mine was shot and barely survived the ordeal because her 
boyfriend got mad when she wanted to break up with him. No one could 
have foreseen a reaction like that but it nevertheless happened. This 
year in an elementary school an adolescent entered the school and 
killed a young boy. In America a student kills 34 people with a gun. 

To state that people that have a dangerous problem that only posse a 
risk one time a month and compare that to the amount of people Lupin 
actually posed a risk too into his adult life then to me it is 
totally overrated to make assumption on what could have happened. How 
often do we state when we are involved in a car accident and no one 
got hurt. Oh it doesn't matter the car is racked but as long as you 
are not hurt is doesn't matter and we do this even if it was our 
fault in the first place but with Lupin it is suddenly different 
because we have to pull in every single doom scenario we can think 
off. No it is not, nothing happened it was very unfortunate that he 
forgot his potion and very unfortunate that he forgot the time but 
the only bad thing coming from it is that Sirius could no longer 
proof that he was innocent. 

It is what it is and Lupin doesn't take it lightly and that should be 
the end of it. 

JMHO

Dana