Choices of life - Abilities or other qualities/Snape-a werewolf bigot? Say it is

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170252

> Dana:
> You do not either for planes you assume that the company flying 
you 
> to your destination has taken the right precautions. You are not 
> agreeing on failed or clumsy maintenance or design failures, 
> incompetent personnel ect. Just like you assume that the school 
you 
> are sending your kids is safe for these kids. Lupin even if he ran 
> through the school would never be able to get into the different 
> dorms as he can't say the passwords and therefore he would only be 
a 
> risk to students breaking the rules and are out of bed after 
hours. 
> To say he could have brought the entire student body into danger 
if 
> he ran through the castle is not totally correct either and the 
> teachers knew he was a werewolf so they could increase security on 
> students not being out of bounds during full moon nights. To put 
the 
> safety of the students only Lupin's responsibility is going a 
little 
> to far in my opinion. 

Magpie:
::sigh:: I think this is getting silly just to get around what I was 
saying. When you fly you know you are flying and have a basic idea 
of some things that can go wrong. If someone has been clumsy you'd 
probably be able to sue the airline because they have been 
irresponsible. Keeping you safe to a degree that it can be done is 
part of their job. In this case having a werewolf in the school is 
not something anyone thinks is a possibility, and learning that the 
headmaster had snuck one in would, realistically, probably make 
parents angry. Not that this is the first time Dumbledore has done 
this, but the fact that he's doing other things has no bearing on 
this situation.

And I did not say that the safety of the students was *only* Lupin's 
responsibility. Lupin, like it or not, has been stuck with a disease 
which is a great responsibility. If he had bitten someone while 
making the choice to break the rules he had agreed to for his own 
protection and the protection of others, I doubt Lupin would have 
been held soley responsible. The school and Dumbledore would have 
been held responsible as well, and it would probably be used as 
proof that werewolves can't be trusted by those who didn't want 
werewolves there. 

The precautions that Dumbledore put into place where by a werewolf 
student could attend school like anyone else because on full moon 
nights he would simply go to the Shrieking Shack and therefore be 
isolated when he was dangerous, was not enough, because of the 
choices of several kids at the school, including Lupin himself. He 
was a kid, as you say, but in that case that meant he couldn't be 
trusted to do the right thing. Another werewolf student would also 
be a kid. It's good that they didn't get caught and nobody got hurt, 
but that doesn't change that Lupin's actions were irresponsible 
whether or not the worst happened.

As a teacher it's not his sole responsibility either, but I'm sure 
he of all people knows the lion's share falls to him. Precautions 
were in place for him then as well. Unfortunately something came up 
and that was enough to set a wolf onto the grounds.

> Dana:
> The "what if" are irrelevant to how events actually played out. 
You 
> cannot go back (without a time-turner that is) and chance things 
so 
> that they did happen according to the "what if". The precautions 
are 
> just that, precautions to something that could happen in an unset 
> future. That is not what I was revering too. Everything that is 
said 
> about what could have happen did not happen but what did happen is 
> that Sirius was there and prevented Lupin from causing any harm. 
> 
> If we truly look at the "what if's" and make assumptions 
accordingly 
> then one should also make assumptions on the ability of Lupin 
getting 
> into the castle. The doors are closed at night and therefore who 
says 
> they would have led him in? A werewolf is rated as a dark creature 
so 
> Sirius getting passed the door can't be used as an indication that 
if 
> he could then so could Lupin.

Magpie:
I don't know whether they're completely irrelevent in this case 
since the point of precautions is to avoid the things that could 
happen in this situation. Regardless, in this situation I don't 
think there's any reason to worry about him getting *into* the 
castle on that particular night, no. But I think clearly what 
everyone wanted and what everyone agreed was an acceptable situation 
was that Lupin was a teacher at the school and yet never a loose un-
wolfsbaned werewolf. That's unfortunately what didn't work out. 
Nobody wants to get to the point where anybody needs protecting from 
the werewolf-minded werewolf.

Dana:
> 
> The same goes for him not telling DD, Sirius is an animagus. Who 
says 
> that it would have led to Sirius capture? It is speculation that 
> Lupin telling DD would have taken a way the risk Harry was in. 
Sirius 
> being an animagus had nothing to do with him not getting passed 
the 
> Fat Lady and it had nothing to do with him eventually getting into 
> the Gryffindor tower as he had the passwords and thus DD having 
the 
> knowledge of Sirius being an animagus might not actually have 
> prevented these events either. 

Magpie:
Doesn't matter that I can see. It was the right thing to do in that 
situation, obviously, for a person whose goal was to help catch 
Sirius. Lupin himself knows this--he hid the information so as to 
preserve his own reputation. (Now, as it happens I *do* find myself 
thinking he also was protecting the time in his life when he was 
happy, but either way he's acting against the Dumbledore team here, 
which I love, but I don't think any of them care to hear excuses 
about how maybe Sirius wouldn't have been caught even if he did 
share the information he was sitting on.) The point isn't what 
happened as a result of Lupin's not being forthcoming--those were 
good things, after all, since Sirius was really innocent. The point 
is that Lupin put his own personal agenda above the one before him 
of the time of protecting Harry by making catching Sirius his 
priority.

Dana:> 
> You can speculate on the "what if's" until you turn purple in the 
> face but the outcome of events as they stands never chance. You 
can 
> only speculate on intentions/ motives people had for their 
actions, 
> you can speculate on the details of how events unfolded and they 
can 
> still vary as more information through the books become known 
(well 
> until the final installment is in place that is) but nothing more 
> then that. 

Magpie:
I think that's what everyone is doing. Lupin's intentions are known. 
Though those intentions aren't necessarily a practical part of 
somebody trying to create a safe environment for a school that 
includes werewolf students or teachers.

Dana:
And if you want to judge Lupin by the mistakes he makes 
> then to me it should be placed in the right context and not pull, 
> every single thing that could have happened, into it. 
> Lupin takes responsibility for his mistakes by resigning because 
the 
> idea of what could have happened hunts him and it should but to 
make 
> statements like he could have killed half the student body if he 
had 
> roamed the castle is just having a figurative imagination for doom 
> scenario's without actually taking into account that he might not 
> have been able to get into caslte in the first place and the risk 
he 
> possed to the people he was with was taken away by Sirius that is 
the 
> facts. 

Magpie:
Sure--I don't think we need to have Lupin killing half the castle. 
The characters in canon deal with the more realistic situation 
they're actually facing.

Dana: 
> Also to state that Lupin's record is bad because Sirius revealed 
the 
> secret of how to get passed the willow is putting responsibilities 
> into Lupin's shoes for what another boy did. It is like stating it 
is 
> Sirius fault that the Potters are dead because he suggested 
switching 
> to Peter while first of all the Potters agreed themselves to the 
> switch and it is not Sirius fault that Peter betrayed them. 

Magpie:
I was not putting responsibility for that with Lupin. We're talking 
about the situation when Lupin was a student and whether the 
precautions made it safe for everyone else. When I mentioned Sirius' 
prank I was not blaming it on Lupin, but pointing out that the 
situation wound up leading to a potentially dangerous situation. 
Lupin's record is bad not because Sirius pulled the Prank but 
because Lupin consistently chose to go out himself, not following 
the precautions put in place for him. And then later he forgets to 
take his Potion. Those are things he does that lead to a non-
wolfsbaned werewolf loose. They're not terrible mistakes in 
themselves, but the stakes are high. Someone looking at the record 
isn't going to be looking for an excuse for every time he was an 
unwolfsbaned werewolf.

Dana:> 
> The marauders all knew these safety precautions were put in place 
for 
> a reason and Peter being the smallest could have found out how to 
get 
> passed the willow without Lupin ever telling them. They all broke 
the 
> rules and they all were ignorant to the risks. All of them could 
> equally have paused and thought what they were doing was to 
dangerous 
> but none of them did. 

Magpie:
This is why I keep getting confused about whether "what ifs" count 
or not. I don't think it matters who told them how to do it. They 
all broke the rules and ignored the risks. That's the point. I'm not 
blaming their actions on Lupin. I'm holding Lupin responsible only 
for his own actions.

Dana:
If 
> he actually had been able to get out on his own then DD's safety 
> precautions failed regardless of the marauders being there and 
Lupin 
> could not have been held accountable if he had gotten out on his 
own 
> while in his werewolf form. So it were James, Sirius and Peter 
that 
> exposed a werewolf to the outside world something Lupin only could 
> have been opposed to in his human form and he had no human 
thoughts 
> when he is a werewolf and therefore can't make human decisions. 

Magpie:
I don't get this defense except that it obviously is a defense. 
Lupin couldn't get out on his own. He was put in there to be locked 
in. James, Sirius and Peter let him out. Lupin could only have 
opposed this in his human form--he DID NOT oppose it in his human 
form. He assented to it. It's only his human form's decisions he's 
being held accountable for.

Dana:
> First of all it was not Lupin's call to keep him being a werewolf 
a 
> secret. He did not apply for the job and then was hired on the 
> promise that he would do anything to be safe but DD asking him to 
> take the job. Lupin trusts DD's judgement that he could safely 
teach 
> but neither DD or Lupin could have foreseen what happened on that 
> night. 

Magpie:
Who said it was Lupin's call to keep it secret? I said that because 
of the situation in society Dumbledore basically has to keep it a 
secret to give Lupin a job. If Dumbledore and Lupin could be open 
about it things would be safer all around. I specifically did *not* 
blame Lupin for that.

The fact that they couldn't have foreseen what happened that night 
doesn't make a difference in terms of judging the safety of the 
situation. What they wanted was a situation that was safe for 
everyone. Lupin could teach at the school and never be a werewolf in 
a savage form running free. Unfortunately, all it took was something 
surprising to happen for that to happen. That's not much. A teacher 
being distracted at Hogwarts is not unforseeable.

Dana: 
> Both cases involve only the trio (well in PoA also Snape) that 
were 
> in immediate danger for werewolf Lupin and the intruder. And under 
> normal circumstances in both cases these kids would not have been 
put 
> in danger at all because if nothing had happened that made Lupin 
rush 
> out then he certainly would not have forgotten his potion. Besides 
> the potion is not even at issue here. It is actually Lupin 
forgetting 
> the time and coming out of the tunnel with the rest of them. 

Magpie:
Yeah, that's the point. If you're trying to set up a situation where 
Lupin can teach at the school, you have to make it safe. That's what 
Dumbledore, Lupin and Snape all tried to do. If a night not being 
completely normal led to Lupin with his werewolf mind loose on the 
grounds, that experiment was a failure and they need to do more. 
More precautions, more of a safety net--something. Lupin putting 
people in danger *was* an issue. It's the central issue. They were 
lucky that Sirius was there, but they still failed in their 
objective which was: no transformed!Lupin with wolf minds free 
anywhere on the Hogwarts grounds just because he got distracted at 
in the wrong five minutes. 

Now, if it were me, knowing Lupin, I might certainly give him 
another chance, sure, because I know the score. But I wouldn't blame 
a parent of a student for saying no, no way. 

Dana:
> The issue, not even that night, was never if Lupin could safely 
teach 
> at Hogwarts because he could. These events occurred not during the 
> school day time but at night time and under very rare 
circumstances 
> that no one could have ever foreseen, especially not Lupin 
himself. 

Magpie:
Except the circumstances weren't quite that rare. Sure seeing his 
dead friend on the map was rare. But not the larger issue: Lupin 
forgot to take his Potion one night and left his office and then got 
hit by moonlight. That type of thing happens to people all the time 
at Hogwarts. 

> Dana:
> He is not doing the same thing because what happened during his 
> schooldays and that specific night in PoA are totally different. 
> Lupin did not state he did not think about what could have 
happened 
> and that the thoughts are still hunting him and he takes 
> responsibility for what happened the night in PoA as he should. 
I'm 
> only referring to people brooding on the "what if's" and that he 
> therefore is not entitled to a normal life. 

Magpie:
Yes, I said it was different. Being haunted by something and 
thinking about it doesn't necessarily indicate that much of a change 
for Lupin as a character since that seemed to be consistent for him 
as a teen. I have agreed that he should have a normal life, but some 
of what you consider brooding over "what ifs" seem to me to be 
looking at the situation practically.

Dana:> 
> No one is always able to prevent dangerous situations. DD tries to 
> take safety precautions for Harry and most of them fail miserably 
and 
> it doesn't matter if DD posses a threat himself or if the threat 
> comes from an outside source, a threat is still a threat. 

Magpie:
So there's no need for anybody to take any responsibility for safety 
at all because there will always be a threat? I think Lupin takes a 
more responsible attitude himself--and knows that no parent at 
Hogwart would stand for it. 

Dana:
To make 
> Lupin more responsible for things that did not happen then he 
already 
> takes upon himself, is to me unfairly judging the character or 
even 
> any person that has to deal with problems that have a possible 
> negative affect on other people. The mistakes Lupin made that 
night 
> were not werewolf Lupin making these mistakes but human Lupin and 
> were not part of his human weakness. 

Magpie:
Yes, human Lupin made mistakes and is being judged on the mistakes 
he did make themselves not on the negative they did or didn't have 
on other people. He is held responsible for the negative effects 
they *could have had* on other people when those effects are easily 
forseeable from his actions. That's normal. 

Magpie:
> To state that people that have a dangerous problem that only posse 
a 
> risk one time a month and compare that to the amount of people 
Lupin 
> actually posed a risk too into his adult life then to me it is 
> totally overrated to make assumption on what could have happened. 
How 
> often do we state when we are involved in a car accident and no 
one 
> got hurt. Oh it doesn't matter the car is racked but as long as 
you 
> are not hurt is doesn't matter and we do this even if it was our 
> fault in the first place but with Lupin it is suddenly different 
> because we have to pull in every single doom scenario we can think 
> off. No it is not, nothing happened it was very unfortunate that 
he 
> forgot his potion and very unfortunate that he forgot the time but 
> the only bad thing coming from it is that Sirius could no longer 
> proof that he was innocent. 

Magpie:
I'm not pulling in doom scenarios so that's not relevent. I think 
you're going too far to the other extreme and not dealing with the 
very practical danger at all but just brushing off these things as 
unfortunate and saying well, no harm done. Lupin himself doesn't do 
this at all. 

I'm honestly not sure I'm responding to this post correctly, because 
you don't seem to be responding to me, but sort of responding to 
someone else through me when you talk about doom scenarios and 
imagining the worst. I have already agreed with you that Lupin 
should be able to have a life, and that it's worth making it 
possible for him to be a teacher. But it seems to me that you are 
going to the other extreme. The other person in the thread might not 
be willing to give Lupin a fair chance and might support the 
oppression of werewolves, but I can't imagine anybody being 
comfortable with this attitude as a response to the situation. I 
think they'd want to know how to keep this stuff from going wrong, 
not just explanations of what did go wrong.

-m