Neither Harry nor his Scar is a Horcrux (Was Re: Voldemort's Age)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 170286

> Geoff:
> my feeling is that incantations operate as soon as they are
> spoken, they can't be "post-dated". ...

Mike:
How about Hermione's hex on the DA roster? Does it mark someone 
with "SNEAK" as soon as she performs the incantation or does it 
require an intervening action on someone elses part to activate?

Please note also that the hex is placed on the parchment, but the 
action, when it comes, is against those that signed the parchment. 
That is, the transgressor is *designated* as the receiver of the 
action. In a likewise fashion, a murderer could place the spell on 
himself, the place from where the soul piece will be taken, and 
*designate* the receiving object, the thing that will become a 
Horcrux. The spell then waits for the intervening action, the tearing 
of the soul.

I'm not saying this is *THE* method for making a Horcrux, just that 
this method is consistent within canon as a viable method. Quite 
frankly, I doubt that JKR intends to explain the mechanism of Horcrux 
creation in DH, so this will all remain speculation, never to be 
answered definitively.


---From message 170256 and following threadwise---

> Steve/bboyminn:
> Let us look at the first
> Horcrux. In the summer of his 15 year, Tom Riddle
> kill his father and grandparents. However, during
> the next school year of Tom's 16th year, he is
> asking Slughorn about Horcruxes and is wearing this
> father's ring. We do know the ring was eventually a
> Horcrux.
> 
> Tom doesn't create the First Horcrux until many 
> months after the deaths he  likely based it on. 
>

Mike:
First a little housecleaning. Tom was born Dec 31, so he is 16 from 
the second half of his 5th year through the summer and including the 
first half of his 6th year at Hogwarts.

As to the second part, it is not conclusive as to when Tom created 
his first Horcrux. And it seems likely to me that Tom already created 
the Diary by the time he goes to Little Hangleton in the summer. 
Since we don't know *when* Tom found out how to create a Horcrux, he 
could have made the Diary one with his father's death.

Let's look at that conversation Tom has with Uncle Horace. Imagine, 
for the sake of argument, that Tom had already created a Horcrux 
before this tete-a-tete. How would a Tom Riddle approach a Professor 
Slughorn to gather Sluggy's opinion on multiple Horcruxes. Would he 
start the conversation with this question? Seeing Sluggy's yelping 
reaction to this question and his becoming deeply troubled (HBP 
p.498, US), I think it would be foolish for Tom to go straight for 
the jugular. 

But if Tom slowly draws Sluggy deeper and deeper towards that 
forbidden territory, Sluggy is far less likely to cut off or back out 
of the conversation. That's more like the smooth operator that Harry 
observes. He *acts* suitably informed at each stage of Sluggy's 
information reveal, never changing his approach to receiving any new 
information. My point is, this conversation works for a Tom Riddle 
that has already made his first Horcrux as well as one that is 
Horcruxless at this point in time.

And we should also remember that this multiple Horcrux opinion was 
labelled by Dumbledore as something that Tom "particularly wanted 
from Horace". An aside: I think the info about how a Horcruxed wizard 
survives a killing is probably info that Tom was glad to get and he 
eventually incorporated it into his "plan", but was not on the list 
of info he was going after.



> Goddlefrood:

> I agree that Harry is certainly not an intentionally created
> Horcrux. Having said that I would not commend the view that
> he or his scar may be one accidentally either, at this point,
> that is.

Mike:
I've come over to your side on this question, but probably not the 
way you may think. ;)) I got my revelation from the lady that
follows:


> Jen: I believe this will be the explanation rather than anything 
> connected to a real or accidental Horcrux.  I wouldn't say it's 
> completely speculative however since there's canon in place which 
> would explain such an event.  <snip>
>
> Here it is: 
> 
> A) There's a mechanism in place for a soul piece to be completely 
> torn off from a whole soul if someone commits murder. 
> 
> B)  Two murders were committed at GH and therefore two soul pieces 
> were torn off.
> 
> C)  A completely unexpected and unique event occurred when the AK 
> rebounded and Harry was both 'marked' with a scar and acquired some 
> of Voldemort's powers, an event explained by Dumbledore as 
> Voldemort 'putting a bit of himself' into Harry. <snip>

Mike:
Thanks to you, Jen, I've changed my position. I'm going with the 
simplest explanation is the best. Harry is not a Horcrux, but he is a 
repository of a piece of Voldy's soul. < I will be addressing points 
of Carol's, also found on this thread. Don't need to reference them, 
I know em by heart by now ;) >

If you take Carol's approach, LV's soul only got ripped once by 
Lily's death. This seems the most likely reading, imo. But when the 
AK rebounded, LV's body disintegrates. This is critical, because 
there is no longer a repository for either Voldemort's main soul 
piece nor the newly torn piece. Nothing keeping the torn piece 
together with the main, to give it a chance to possibly reattach to 
the main, as Steve suggests and I agree with.

Without a body both pieces are free to roam, *but* they cannot 
go "beyond the veil", they are both anchored to this plane by the 
other Horcruxes.

This is where the uniquness of events at GH come into play. The 
unblockable curse was not only blocked but rebounded onto the caster. 
The curse that leaves no mark, somehow leaves a cut on Harry's 
forehead. And one more unexplanable, never-happened-before thing 
occurs, the torn off soul piece lodges itself in Harry. Harry isn't a 
Horcrux, the piece wasn't bound by spell to do what it did, but 
nevertheless, that's what happened.

A second possibility occurs to me. This soul piece went into Harry 
with the intention of *possessing* him. But Harry had "powers the 
Dark Lord knows not". The soul piece was captured by a stronger soul, 
Harry's soul, and Harry's soul now controls it. This would mean if 
and when Harry figures this out, and figures out how to consciously 
control this, he can do some real damage with it.

But Harry is still not a Horcrux. So this soul piece is not one of 
Voldy's anchors. And it will not help him once the rest of the pieces 
are freed from their Horcruxes.

BTW, the more I think about it the more it occurs that Harry's scar 
is somewhat of a Red Herring in the whole scheme of things. At the 
most, I think Harry's forehead was the only place in the total *aura 
of protection* surrounding Harry that was breached. Hence he got the 
cut and the soul piece used this breach to enter Harry. But now it's 
a big *so what?* It really has nothing any more to do with the soul 
piece.


> Steve/bboy:
> > But, the problem with this theory is ....
> > Dumbledore .... gives
> > no indication that he thinks the bit of Voldemort in
> > Harry is a piece of Voldemort's soul. 
> 
> Jen:  This is the hardest obstacle to overcome in my opinion and 
> yet JKR has again provided possibilities which are part of 
> Dumbledore's character to explain why he didn't pursue a soul  
> piece  with Harry:  <snipping Jen's options, all valid imo>

Mike:
Couple of things here. If Harry isn't a Horcrux but instead may be 
able to *use* Voldy's soul piece to his advantage, Dumbledore had no 
fear for Harry's well being. Conversely, Dumbledore would not want 
Harry concentrating his efforts on how to eject that soul piece. 
Especially if there is no harm in it being there, and if Dumbledore 
wanted Harry to concentrate on eliminating the other Horcruxes. 

Though Dumbledore is a wise man, he may not have knowledge of how to 
exploit this never-happened-before condition. And Dumbledore doesn't 
have the time to try and figure it out and train Harry up. So 
Dumbledore decides its better to let sleeping dogs lie while still 
dropping the "Nagini" hint to Harry so he might eventually come to 
realize what has happened to him. 

So my question is, how can Harry use this soul piece? Pippin had one 
idea. Anybody else?

Mike