[HPforGrownups] Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape - a werewolf bigot?...)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170419

Lanval:
I'd need more evidence for Lupin resenting the potion, still. As I 
wrote in a reply to another poster, Lupin can't be too tired of it 
yet -- it gives him, after all, the most relief he's had in years, 
and this is only the third time around he's "on" it.

That he's tired to death of the condition itself, and probably not 
to happy for having to be grateful to Snape, of all people -- *that* 
I have no trouble believing.

Magpie:
Yes, that's my point. It's not that Lupin is tired of *the Potion.* I think
he'd love to just have a supply sent to him that he could take at the
proper time.  The problem is that in context the Potion comes with Snape
having something to hang over his head. And the Potion itself isn't even
given to him regularly; only when he's at Hogwarts with the teaching job.
It's presumably taken away when he's not needed any more.
(Which--speculating now--I wonder might not make him fatalistic and not
want to get too used to having it.) What I'm saying about the Potion here
is that it's not like getting tired of a medication you take all the
time--he doesn't get a chance to feel that way because the medication isn't
something he can count on. In this context I think it's just that it's
being used to make a point by Snape and that's what makes Lupin feel a bit
sick and tired. He doesn't like Snape doing that to him and hits back by
refusing to leap on the Potion immediately. He's trying to show some
independence and control in the situation.

> Magpie:
> I don't think she's saying he has a blase attitude in general, but 
that
> he's showing one (intentionally) to Snape. Lupin's entire part in 
the books
> revolves around doing irresponsible things. He goes running with 
the
> Marauders regularly in school, he covers up for Sirius, he forgets 
to take
> his Potion in PoA. Of course these things don't define the entire 
man if he
> were a person, but as a literary creation, if Lupin was a 
chesspiece this
> would be part of his signature move. It's not conjecture anymore 
than
> saying Sirius can be reckless. 
> 

Lanval:
Hm, I guess I just don't see that part of his personality as all 
that significant. All the kids act irresponsibly, and constantly 
endanger themselves and others (if they did not, we'd have no 
story). Teen Snape acts irresponsibly by ignoring both school rules 
and his Headmaster's judgment. He moreover invents at least one very 
dark curse, one that inflicts serious injury if not death, and uses 
it on another student, in the middle of a crowd. I don't see anyone 
claiming that being irresponsible is a hallmark of young Snape, just 
as a example.

Magpie:
Some of Lupin's most important contributions to the plot revolve around him
being a werewolf and having close calls with it. Not being careful enough
to stop that from happening--and this goes along with the Lupin who doesn't
speak up about what he knows about Sirius and hwo doesn't speak up when
Snape's being bullied. If I were making a list of significant attributes of
this character I'd think that was very important--that would be the one
side, and the other side is his kindness and abilities as a good teacher.

One doesn't have to define Lupin's personality that way--if one were asked
to describe Lupin one would probably start with his being kind or a good
teacher. But as a character I think ignoring Lupin's moments of
irresponsibility or making the wrong choice would be like saying Sirius'
desire for excitement and action that significant. By comparison Lupin's
ability to handle students like Neville, like in the Boggart scene, is not
as important. His crunch moments turn more on the moments he dropped the
ball. (As opposed to Neville, for instance, who is on the surface more
timid and flustered but in moments of truth effects the plot through his
core courage.)

Lanval:
On the other hand we must assume that Lupin dutifully *does* take 
his potion all year with one exception, where everyone involved 
seems to have forgotten the werewolf thing. We have no prior history 
of him ever acting unsafe on full moon nights as an adult, and we 
know DD *still* trusts him enough to sent him on important missions 
for the Order (including the fetch-Harry-from-Privet-Drive one), the 
last of which, going underground and having to face Greyback, being 
especially demanding, both in trustworthines and sheer bravery.

Magpie:
Sure. It would be inaccurate to paint Lupin as somebody who isn't competent
at all. There's other parts of his personality too. But it's like
Hagrid--he's loyal to Dumbledore and Harry, but he also consistently blabs
or does stuff wrong.

Lanval:
Lupin's signature negative trait, to me, is the weakness of wanting 
to be liked and accepted that JKR mentioned. Which *can* lead to him 
acting in an irresponsible way, but that's merely a possible effect, 
not the flaw itself.

Magpie:
I happily go along with that--I have never wanted to say that Lupin's
irresponsibility must be an end to itself. Hagrid is also irresponsible for
totally different reasons. They're not irresponsible just to be
irresponsibile. But knowing the reason why is mostly important because it
lets you know where to watch this guy.


> Magpie:
> I don't think the point is that he's choosing to go through the
> transformation. He is having a power play with Snape by not 
drinking the
> concoction immediately, which sets up the repitition later when he 
forgets
> it.
> 

Lanval:
But I don't how one sets up the other...? They seem to be such 
different circumstances. 

Magpie:
One sets up the other in terms of repitition. We have a scene with Lupin
and his Potion where the Potion doesn't get drunk (iirc) during the scene.
This shows how Snape brings the Potion and Lupin must drink it. She almost
always repeats things that way. In CoS, for instance, we see Ron's wand
backfire on him with the slugs, so when Lockhart does it we've seen what
can happen. Totally different circumstances, but still set up earlier. In
GoF Harry and Draco fire hexes at the same time and they bounce off each
other. That sets up later when Harry and Voldemort also throw hexes at the
same time in different circumstances--they have brother wands, so there's a
different result. The first one sets up the second one, which will be in
different circumstances. In PoA Snape brings Lupin the Potion twice. The
first time Lupin puts off drinking it until after the scene (iirc). That's
why Snape can show up later and say he went to Lupin's room etc. and we
understand it immediately from the first scene where Snape was also
encouraging him to drink the Potion while Lupin acted more blase about it.
As soon as Snape shows up talking about the Potion again it's automatically
echoing the first scene where he did that.

Lanval:
There certainly are degrees of danger. Lupin roaming the halls in 
werewolf form presents a greater imminent danger than, say, flying a 
broom during a Quidditch practice. Both can be deadly. Yet there are 
countless kids flying around on brooms, a hundred feet or more up in 
the air, without supervision, all the time (I won't even get into 
other school-sanctioned activities involving hippogriffs, or the 
Triwizard tournament). Lupin will be dangerous on no more than ten 
or eleven entirely foreseeable occasions throughout the school year, 
and for those, precautions were taken -- the most complicated part 
I'd say involving the actual brewing (kudos to Snape for doing a 
fine job all year).

Magpie:
I agree--I'm just saying that we still need to, imo, go with what is
established as important or unusual for the plot. Lupin's missing his
wolfsbane pays off when he forgets the Potion just once and the kids are in
danger, and the scene's written in a scary way. If it's not really a big
deal it undercuts it as a climax.

Lanval:
I fact, had there not been such a level of prejudice against 
werewolves, DD could have simply announced Lupin's "furry little 
secret" on the first night's feast, and that on full moon nights, 
students would be strongly advised to stay in their dorms (as an 
additional precaution on top of the potion). Just as they were 
strongly advised to stay away from the grounds after dark, due to 
the (even more deadly!) Dementors, or just as they were told to stay 
out of a certain corridor during Harry's first year, if they did not 
want to die a painful death. I don't see the big deal here. 

Magpie:
I think it's being a big deal is necessary for the climax where Lupin
transforms. I agree that if there was no prejudice it could all be handled
better--though I'm going to guess that would mean more open precautions for
Lupin as well as probably humorous warnings to the kids. But then, the
Triwizard Tournament could have been played strictly for laughs too (it's
played for laughs when talking about the history of it). But I think it,
like the werewolf situation and wolfsbane, needs to be taken seriously for
the plot.

Lanval:
And it's hard for me to see how the Marauders 'won' (unless you 
mean 'in Snape's mind'?) One is perceived dead, one is truly dead, 
one is in prison, and the last one is an outcast from society, poor, 
half-starved, and sickly, with a horrible condition to bear. 

Snape? Cushy job, three solid meals a day, a steady neverending 
supply of little victims to bully, brewing potions, hanging out with 
important folks like L. Malfoy, and just generally enjoying the 
privilege and recognition that being Potions Master at Hogwarts, and 
Head of Slytherin House brings with it.

Magpie:
I agree-but I was indeed talking about in Snape's mind.:-) If there's one
lesson Snape doesn't seem to have learned, it's that living well (or
better) is the best revenge. What I think he sees is them winning is just
that he's never been vindicated and been "right" about them. James was made
Head Boy, Dumbledore still doesn't side with him about the Prank, James got
Lily, Snape made all these mistakes, James is the hero. 


Magpie:
> Which just fascinates me because JKR *could* have had Lupin be all 
frantic
> about taking the Potion to set up just how important it was that 
he always
> get it on time, and then in turn use that to show how shocked he 
was by
> seeing Peter (because we'd know how important it was). The scene 
she wrote
> was imo more interesting and says things a bit more interesting 
about
> Lupin. He's never just the Patron Martyr Saint of Werewolves.
> 

Lanval:
That would certainly have helped in making a better case for Lupin, 
but from a writer's perspective it would have been difficult. If 
Lupin was becoming frantic, knowing evening was near, and Snape had 
not shown up with the potion, surely he would not have stayed at his 
desk, studying the map, but gone in search of Snape? But for plot 
reasons, he had to be reasonably calm and study the map. 

Magpie:
Whatever the plot reason, it rmeans something to Lupin's character. It's
just like his covering up what he knows about Sirius. She needed Lupin to
do that for the plot, but the reasons she had for him doing it are central
to his character as well. She didn't choose to have him blackmailed or not
know about Sirius' secret somehow, or have made a vow not to tell or
whatever. She went right out there with a guy who seems really nice but was
concealing information because ultimately his priorities are not always
those one would expect from the responsible adult. The guy chose to
preserve his rep with Dumbledore than spill his guts to protect Harry.

Lanval:
We have Snape saying that Lupin had forgotten to take his potion 
*tonight* which implies that Lupin had little reason to be frantic 
just yet; Snape wasn't all that late by the time Lupin leaves his 
room, this was shortly after dinner. Of course there's the weird 
fact that the arrangement seems to have been that Snape would 
deliver the potion to Lupin, so why does he blame Lupin for having 
forgotten it? Just Snape being Snape?

Magpie:
Well, it could be that Snape comes to Lupin only when Lupin forgets or if
he hasn't finished making the Potion or whatever. There's no reason to be
frantic since the Potion is coming and he's calm about it. But I don't
think Snape's accusing Lupin of anything unfairly. Snape, in the earlier
scene, seems to be more uptight about the Potion in general, and likes it
taken the earlier the better. It doesn't seem odd for Snape to be honestly
saying that Lupin's forgotten the Potion if it's after dinner and this is
one of the nights he needs to take it.

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