Werewolves and RL equivalents

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170451

> Alla:
> 
> I think I am agreeing to disagree for those points - we are really 
> too far apart as to whether it is DD decision or not, but just 
need 
> a little more clarification on this one.
> 
> I am sorry, I do not understand. At all. My premise is that 
> Dumbledore **maybe** , not necessarily, but maybe angry at Snape 
and 
> does not want to show anything in front of Harry, so what do you 
> think JKR would have done differently if she wanted to show just 
> that?
> 
> I think she really cannot do anything, because it is OOC IMO for 
DD 
> to show his negative attitude towards school teacher in front of 
> student and this ambiguity is the most she could do, to let us 
> interpret as we wish.

Magpie:
I'm not saying that DD couldn't be angry or at the least 
disappointed in Snape for telling about Lupin. He can be one or both 
of those things. I'm disagreeing that Snape or public opinion 
controls who Dumbledore keeps on or fires based on what we've 
consistently seen about Dumbledore. In terms of DD being angry I was 
just making a more general point, that if something is important to 
understanding the situation JKR puts it in in some way. I disagree 
that she *couldn't* ever show us that Dumbledore was angry at Snape--
she finds ways to hint at Dumbledore's emotions about Snape when she 
wants those emotions to be seen by us.

We generally have an idea how Dumbledore feels about which teachers 
he wants and why, and given the situation and his response to Lupin 
he doesn't seem to think his having to leave is a problem at all. 
Keeping Lupin on, even if in the capacity of a different kind of 
teacher, is not something Dumbledore does.

Jen:
Jen: All of the Marauders and Snape had a personal agenda in POA; I
don't understand how Lupin was operating on a level that the others
weren't? He explained his reasoning for why he made the choices he
did throughout the year and some of his choices were based on flawed
reasoning and poor judgement. I don't see anything Lupin did
specifically which wouldn't fall under him messing up or allowing
personal issues to interfere? Or Sirus for that matter. Or Snape!

Magpie:
Lupin chooses to hide information relevent to the goal of protecting 
Harry. This is not having a personal issue that mess him up, like 
when Hagrid totally *wants* to be loyal to DD and but messes up 
because his understanding and impulse control is limited. Or when 
Snape refuses to or argues about doing this or that thing. I think 
Dumbledore can deal with that. Lupin was on the face of it loyal to 
Dumbledore and trying to stop Sirius, but really was witholding 
information because it was more important to him that he look good. 
Of the three I have no problem saying that Snape is DDM, Hagrid is 
DDM and Lupin is his own man--and Sirius is Harry and James' man. 
He's not on the same level as Snape or Hagrid in Dumbledore's world 
either. The Marauders are not centered around Dumbledore. Hagrid and 
Snape (if he's DDM Snape) are, despite their personal issues. 
Dumbledore can deal with personal limitations. Lupin's a lot more 
slippery due to the nature of his flaws. He exists more comfortably 
in the realm of people working for Dumbledore but not so centered on 
him as Snape and Hagrid.

Jen:

Who comprises the really inner circle for Dumbledore if he has no
confidantes according to JKR? I'd say everyone Dumbledore included
in the hospital scene in GOF, and Lupin was included by the fact that
Sirius was going directly to him after the meeting to contact the old
crowd, is considered part of the DDM circle by Dumbledore. Lupin's
considered trustworthy enough to be a spy after all.

Magpie:
It isn't about being a confidante but being personally loyal. I see 
a big difference between Sirius and Lupin and Hagrid and DDM!Snape. 
They're all in the circle in terms of being in the Order, but Snape 
and Hagrid have a different relationship to Dumbledore. 

Jen: Snape's motivation was important because how he feels about the
Marauders is a crucial part of the series and may have bearing on
revelations about Snape's past and future. My point was there wasn't
a chance for Dumbledore or Lupin to make a choice - it was taken out
of their hands by Snape. And nowhere does it say Dumbledore believed
three students were endangered that night. He's the one who
suggested the time turner, sending two of the students back out into
the situation, and later convinced Fudge that Lupin was trying to
save lives.

Magpie:
I think the only choice Snape took out of their hands was the choice 
to out Lupin. It just goes totally against everything we've seen of 
Dumbledore and even the way it's played in PoA that Dumbledore 
wanted Lupin to stay and couldn't because of Snape. I think if that 
were the case we would most certainly see Dumbledore angry at Snape 
and openly wanting to find a way to bring Lupin back. Dumbledore, 
imo, would not just have Lupin on his way before lunch without a 
fight because tomorrow there will be OWLS arriving from angry 
parents. No way. As to whether Dumbledore believed students were in 
danger, that doesn't have to be the biggest factor in Dumbledore not 
minding if Lupin left, but if he didn't believe they were in danger 
he had lost grip on reality. They were in danger, obviously, when 
they faced a transformed werewolf. He covered up for Lupin and knew 
that he wasn't trying to hurt anyone, but I can't imagine Dumbledore 
not thinking there's any danger involved in their being out there 
with a werewolf. That would be a bit clueless on his part.

Jen: Since when is Dumbledore all about consequences? Lupin may have
stated he didn't live up to Dumbledore's trust but nowhere does it
say Dumbledore agreed. This is the same guy who was smiling and
expressing amazement to find out the Marauders became illegal animagi
and were running around the castle grounds as students. Dumbledore
was aware when he hired Lupin that he would only be staying a year
and that the DADA curse would act on him in some way. DD, and
presumably Lupin, agreed to those conditions at the beginning of the
contract. Dumbledore knew there would be a poor outcome; he just
didn't know what it would be.

Magpie:
We don't know since Dumbledore doesn't say, but I'll just put out 
that I absolutely think that Dumbledore considers Lupin less than 
personally loyal to him. Everything about Lupin's behavior in PoA, 
to me, makes it unsurprising that this character isn't one of that 
really tight circle. Sirius' behavior is completely different than 
Lupin's, just as it was when they were at school (though Dumbledore 
seems to be under no delusions about who he's most loyal to either). 
Lupin isn't some sort of outcast because of it; he's still useful to 
the Order and works for Dumbledore. I just don't think the 
relationship is like that of Hagrid and Snape with him. The nature 
of the guy's flaws are different from the flaws of those two as well.

-m