Werewolves and RL equivalents

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 170462

colebiancardi:
> I don't think Snape had anything with the final decision of Lupin
> leaving Hogwarts. The curse on the DADA job did it for Lupin. It was
> written in stone, in other words. Dumbledore knew it, Snape knew it,
> and I am sure Lupin knew it as well. 
<snip>
> Snape didn't cause Lupin to leave - the curse of the DADA job did 
> that.

Jen:  The curse ensures Lupin won't return as Dumbledore has not been 
able to keep a DADA professor for longer than a year.  Actions 
determine the actual cause of the event though, not the curse; 
Snape's actions serve the story in some way since they are connected 
to Lupin's leave-taking.  

If Snape knew about or suspected a problem with the DADA position 
that would lead to Lupin leaving regardless of his own actions, then 
it's difficult to see any reason for Snape to reveal the information 
if his only goal was getting Lupin ousted.  Which means to me he 
either didn't know the curse would ensure Lupin was leaving or he had 
another goal in revealing the information.  

Pippin: 
> Although Dumbledore had the authority to hire and fire teachers, 
> Fudge had the authority to decide whether werewolves could work at 
> all. He says he is the one who let Dumbledore hire Lupin,presumably 
> by bending the laws Umbridge got passed.
<snip>
> Although Fudge let himself be convinced that Lupin wasn't actually
> helping Black, I doubt he would have let himself be convinced that
> Lupin would never err about his potion again. I'm not sure 
> Dumbledore wouldn't have agreed. I think it's telling that 
> Dumbledore didn't invite Lupin to continue living in the castle as 
> he did with Trelawney.

Jen:  Fudge's only concern about Lupin appears to be whether he was 
consorting with a murderer.  As Fudge is leaving he's already talking 
about how it's going to look that Sirius Black slipped through MOM 
fingers again and the possibility Buckbeak's escape will become 
news.  He's got bigger fish to fry in the whole matter than 
Dumbledore's teacher problems.

Any why the assumption Umbridge passed the legislation before Lupin 
was hired?  If Sirius' 'two years ago' is being taken as literal then 
I find it difficult to agree on that basis alone given the way JKR 
throws around numbers.  Sirius talks about Lupin not being able to 
find a job in the present tense due to the legislation, not his whole 
life or every year but the one when Dumbledore intervened and Fudge 
bent the law in order for Lupin to be hired.  I can't prove this but 
it seems logical to me that because the legislation occured in the 
story after the events of POA, that when Lupin's story became public 
knowledge it was the impetus behind Umbridge having enough public and 
political support to pass her legislation.  

(I can't see any reason for Lupin living in the castle.  There's no 
particular reason he would be singled out by Voldemort as Trelawney 
and Snape would be if LV returns. )

> Magpie:
> Lupin chooses to hide information relevent to the goal of
> protecting Harry. This is not having a personal issue that mess him
> up, like when Hagrid totally *wants* to be loyal to DD and but
> messes up because his understanding and impulse control is limited.
> Or when Snape refuses to or argues about doing this or that thing.
> I think Dumbledore can deal with that.  Lupin was on the face of it
> loyal to Dumbledore and trying to stop Sirius, but really was
> witholding information because it was more important to him that he
> look good.

Jen:  It's only my interpretation but Lupin's explanation for his 
actions in POA sound exactly like what you said above about Hagrid: 
Lupin convinced himself of certain 'truths' because he was cowardly, 
because it would have meant telling Dumbledore he betrayed his trust 
as a student.  Those are personal failures interfering when 
Dumbledore's trust 'has meant everything to me.' 

Magpie:  
> Of the three I have no problem saying that Snape is DDM, Hagrid is 
> DDM and Lupin is his own man--and Sirius is Harry and James' man. 
> He's not on the same level as Snape or Hagrid in Dumbledore's world 
> either. The Marauders are not centered around Dumbledore. Hagrid
> and Snape (if he's DDM Snape) are, despite their personal issues. 
> Dumbledore can deal with personal limitations. Lupin's a lot more 
> slippery due to the nature of his flaws. He exists more comfortably 
> in the realm of people working for Dumbledore but not so centered 
> on him as Snape and Hagrid.

Jen: Okay.  I can't really debate this as it never occurred to me 
Dumbledore was categorizing loyalty beyond the people he trusts being 
in the Order.  He shares information on a need-to-know basis with 
everyone according to their mission from how I read the story.  Snape 
and Hagrid are more *dependent* on Dumbledore, that I see.  Lupin and 
Sirius neither request nor appear to be in need of Dumbledore's 
interventions to solve their own problems.  So he doesn't offer it. 

> Magpie:
> I think the only choice Snape took out of their hands was the
> choice to out Lupin. It just goes totally against everything we've
> seen of Dumbledore and even the way it's played in PoA that 
> Dumbledore wanted Lupin to stay and couldn't because of Snape. I 
> think if that were the case we would most certainly see Dumbledore
> angry at Snape and openly wanting to find a way to bring Lupin
> back. Dumbledore, imo, would not just have Lupin on his way before 
> lunch without a fight because tomorrow there will be OWLS arriving
> from angry parents. No way. 

Jen:  It seems like a moot point to consider what Dumbledore wanted 
or not since he knew Lupin wouldn't be staying past a year no matter 
what.  I guess he could go through the motions of being angry at 
Snape and talking about finding a way for Lupin to stay, but to no 
beneficial end from what I can see.  There's no other position for 
Lupin to take but DADA and Lupin isn't in need of Dumbledore's 
protection or help as others who stay in the castle are.  I believe 
Lupin, having always made his own way, would find it insulting for 
Dumbledore to offer some assistant job as he did to Hagrid (who was 
13 and had no family at the time).

Lupin says he's leaving however that transpired and is packing after 
a private chat with Dumbledore earlier in the morning.  It's a done 
deal by the time Harry is present with both of them.  

Magpie:
> As to whether Dumbledore believed students were in danger, that 
> doesn't have to be the biggest factor in Dumbledore not minding if 
> Lupin left, but if he didn't believe they were in danger he had 
> lost grip on reality. They were in danger, obviously, when they 
> faced a transformed werewolf. He covered up for Lupin and knew that
> he wasn't trying to hurt anyone, but I can't imagine Dumbledore not
> thinking there's any danger involved in their being out there with
> a werewolf. That would be a bit clueless on his part.

Jen:  The presumption is they are in danger and yet no one focuses on 
it in the story except Lupin the next day!  While Lupin in werewolf 
form is running loose on the grounds, Fudge and Dumbledore appear to 
be more concerned about the Dementors and Snape is fixated on 
Dumbledore trusting his story over the Trio's and Black escaping 
again.  Then Dumbledore approves Harry and Hermione to go back out 
and wander around the grounds again- heck yeah I think it looks like 
all of them have lost their grip but none of the characters seem to 
agree. 

Julie:
> I guess that is the crux of the disagreement then, that Dumbledore 
> *couldn't* make a choice. I and others don't agree that is the 
> case, since Dumbledore pretty much does what he wants. And even on
> the few occasions he CAN'T do what he wants, because the Ministry
> or someone else has the power to stop him, we've always been made
> aware of that interference. So why not this time? No good reason I
> can think of, other than that what is happening is acceptable to 
> Dumbledore.

Jen:  What I meant by that is had Snape waited or not come forward 
when he did, Dumbledore and Lupin would have revealed the outcome 
that Lupin was leaving anyway -that's what was taken out of their 
hands, the choice to present the information as they saw fit and 
include the details they felt were necessary.  So Snape acted 
preemptively for some mystifying reason.  I mean, people are arguing 
he didn't do it to get Lupin fired and Snape's words had no bearing 
on Lupin's job prospects or career, so why did JKR make Snape part of 
the story?  I don't see a purpose for him telling the students about 
Lupin if it had no meaning.  

Jen