Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape - a werewolf bigot?...)

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170454

>
> Lanval:

> That he's tired to death of the condition itself, and probably not 
> to happy for having to be grateful to Snape, of all people -- 
*that* 
> I have no trouble believing.
> 
> Magpie:
> Yes, that's my point. It's not that Lupin is tired of *the 
Potion.* I think
> he'd love to just have a supply sent to him that he could take at 
the
> proper time.  The problem is that in context the Potion comes with 
Snape
> having something to hang over his head. And the Potion itself 
isn't even
> given to him regularly; only when he's at Hogwarts with the 
teaching job.
> It's presumably taken away when he's not needed any more.
> (Which--speculating now--I wonder might not make him fatalistic 
and not
> want to get too used to having it.) 

Lanval:
Interesting point. Especially if he, as discussed in another post, 
knows about the curse and realizes he won't teach for more than a 
year.

Magpie:
What I'm saying about the Potion here
> is that it's not like getting tired of a medication you take all 
the
> time--he doesn't get a chance to feel that way because the 
medication isn't
> something he can count on. In this context I think it's just that 
it's
> being used to make a point by Snape and that's what makes Lupin 
feel a bit
> sick and tired. He doesn't like Snape doing that to him and hits 
back by
> refusing to leap on the Potion immediately. He's trying to show 
some
> independence and control in the situation.

Lanval:
Oh, that's entirely within reason. My point wasn't so much that it's 
impossible for him to resent the whole situation with the potion, 
but that Lupin, like a good boy, *does* drink the potion with only 
minute delay as soon as Snape leaves; a fact that seems to get 
neglected. Power play, as a response to Snape's attitude? Sure, why 
not. But others seem to want to build a case for a scenario that has 
Lupin systematically, with perhaps evil intent, resisting Snape and 
DD, by forgetting/procrastinating when it comes to his medication 
all year. And I can't buy that. 
> 
 
> 
> Magpie:
> Some of Lupin's most important contributions to the plot revolve 
around him
> being a werewolf and having close calls with it. Not being careful 
enough
> to stop that from happening--and this goes along with the Lupin 
who doesn't
> speak up about what he knows about Sirius and hwo doesn't speak up 
when
> Snape's being bullied. If I were making a list of significant 
attributes of
> this character I'd think that was very important--that would be 
the one
> side, and the other side is his kindness and abilities as a good 
teacher.
> 
> One doesn't have to define Lupin's personality that way--if one 
were asked
> to describe Lupin one would probably start with his being kind or 
a good
> teacher. But as a character I think ignoring Lupin's moments of
> irresponsibility or making the wrong choice would be like saying 
Sirius'
> desire for excitement and action that significant. By comparison 
Lupin's
> ability to handle students like Neville, like in the Boggart 
scene, is not
> as important. His crunch moments turn more on the moments he 
dropped the
> ball. (As opposed to Neville, for instance, who is on the surface 
more
> timid and flustered but in moments of truth effects the plot 
through his
> core courage.)
> 

Lanval:
Hm. I think I get what you're saying now, and I agree -- if what 
you're saying is that JKR chose to stress certain aspects of Lupin's 
character because they turn out to be crucial for the plot -- that 
while Lupin's kindness and talents as a teacher and other 
obvious 'good points' are out in the open, unfortunately it's his 
bad moments (caused by his negative traits) that have a huge impact 
on the story? 

<snipping some>

> Magpie:
> One sets up the other in terms of repitition. We have a scene with 
Lupin
> and his Potion where the Potion doesn't get drunk (iirc) during 
the scene.
> This shows how Snape brings the Potion and Lupin must drink it. 
She almost
> always repeats things that way. In CoS, for instance, we see Ron's 
wand
> backfire on him with the slugs, so when Lockhart does it we've 
seen what
> can happen. Totally different circumstances, but still set up 
earlier. In
> GoF Harry and Draco fire hexes at the same time and they bounce 
off each
> other. That sets up later when Harry and Voldemort also throw 
hexes at the
> same time in different circumstances--they have brother wands, so 
there's a
> different result. The first one sets up the second one, which will 
be in
> different circumstances. In PoA Snape brings Lupin the Potion 
twice. The
> first time Lupin puts off drinking it until after the scene 
(iirc). That's
> why Snape can show up later and say he went to Lupin's room etc. 
and we
> understand it immediately from the first scene where Snape was also
> encouraging him to drink the Potion while Lupin acted more blase 
about it.
> As soon as Snape shows up talking about the Potion again it's 
automatically
> echoing the first scene where he did that.

Lanval:
Oh, I see. It wasn't quite clear to me if you meant it as Scene 1 by 
necessity bringing on Scene 2 (as in: Lupin resents the potion ==> 
he'll resent it /delay taking it the next time, again and again ==> 
come that fateful June evening, Lupin's forgetting the potion 
because that's what he's been 'working toward' all year long). 
But if you see it as a kind of foreshadowing/writerly device, a hint 
to the reader that somewhere in the future a situation will arise 
where Lupin not taking the potion will prove significant -- yes, 
that makes perfect sense.




> Magpie:
> I agree--I'm just saying that we still need to, imo, go with what 
is
> established as important or unusual for the plot. Lupin's missing 
his
> wolfsbane pays off when he forgets the Potion just once and the 
kids are in
> danger, and the scene's written in a scary way. If it's not really 
a big
> deal it undercuts it as a climax.
> 

Lanval:
True. I think JKR undercuts herself sometimes in that way. Let's 
take Harry's bucking bewitched broom in SS/PS, when it seems to be 
important for the plot that Snape at least *try* to save Harry' life.

Yet later in PoA, Harry does fall off his broom, but DD is there to 
slow the fall, and one would hope any teacher present would know a 
similar spell. Commone sense would demand some sort of precaution, 
since falling off a broom can happen to any player, at any time, so 
why not simply put a permanent repelling charm on the ground of the 
Quidditch field? Or a magical net? But then, there goes the 
drama/plot device of Snape attempting to pay back the life debt.


> Magpie:
> I think it's being a big deal is necessary for the climax where 
Lupin
> transforms. I agree that if there was no prejudice it could all be 
handled
> better--though I'm going to guess that would mean more open 
precautions for
> Lupin as well as probably humorous warnings to the kids. But then, 
the
> Triwizard Tournament could have been played strictly for laughs 
too (it's
> played for laughs when talking about the history of it). But I 
think it,
> like the werewolf situation and wolfsbane, needs to be taken 
seriously for
> the plot.

Lanval:
Right, the Triwizard Tournament would be another example. It becomes 
deadly serious once it happens, because otherwise, where's the 
story? And prejudice about werewolves being perhaps on a scale in 
the WW it doesn't warrant, compared to other everyday hazards -- 
well, prejudice is rarely logical. 

So yes, in the end, things don't always make sense in Potterverse, 
and I suppose we just have to accept that danger matters when the 
author says it matters. :)

> 

> 
> Magpie:
> I agree-but I was indeed talking about in Snape's mind.:-) If 
there's one
> lesson Snape doesn't seem to have learned, it's that living well 
(or
> better) is the best revenge. What I think he sees is them winning 
is just
> that he's never been vindicated and been "right" about them. James 
was made
> Head Boy, Dumbledore still doesn't side with him about the Prank, 
James got
> Lily, Snape made all these mistakes, James is the hero. 
> 
Lanval:
Ah, I see. :)


> Magpie:
> Well, it could be that Snape comes to Lupin only when Lupin 
forgets or if
> he hasn't finished making the Potion or whatever. There's no 
reason to be
> frantic since the Potion is coming and he's calm about it. But I 
don't
> think Snape's accusing Lupin of anything unfairly. Snape, in the 
earlier
> scene, seems to be more uptight about the Potion in general, and 
likes it
> taken the earlier the better. It doesn't seem odd for Snape to be 
honestly
> saying that Lupin's forgotten the Potion if it's after dinner and 
this is
> one of the nights he needs to take it.
> 
Lanval:
Anything is of course feasible again, because we don't know if, or 
how, the arrangement has been changed. Snape sounds as if he 
expected Lupin to drop by, and when he didn't, Snape went to Lupin's 
office, bringing a goblet along. Which is oddly enough the exact 
scenario of the first scene, where this arrangement appears 
to be taken for granted.

It doesn't help either that Snape mentions he made an entire 
cauldronful; if it has to be drunk immediately, why would he prepare 
more than one dose?

>

> 
> Carol responds:
> Well, we know that Lupin thinks the potion is disgusting and 
comments,
> "Too bad sugar makes it useless." He'd certainly be more willing to
> take it if it tasted like, say, pumpkin juice. 

Lanval:
That would be childish in the extreme --- to forego something so 
crucial to his own life and that of others because it tastes bad. 
No, sorry, I can't see that being a reason. 

Carol:
Also, I don't know
> about you, but I find it all too easy to put off doing what's good 
for
> me or necessary to my existence, whether it's going to the doctor 
for
> a check-up (it's been about seven years since I made myself do 
that)> or paying my electric bill (which usually requires a reminder 
notice
> from the electric company threatening to turn off the power if I 
don't
> pay by a set date).


Lanval:
Hey, you do know me! *waves to a fellow procrastinator* :)

Carol:
 Lupin, being human, probably has the same
> tendency. And Snape, of all people, knows how important it is that
> Lupin not forget or procrastinate too long. and Lupin, IMO, tends 
to
> do what's easy rather than what's right, as we see from his days as
> Hogwarts' least effectual Prefect.
> 


Lanval:
Yes, but the fact remains that he *takes* the potion without further 
delay once Snape is gone. Right in front of Harry. The time elapsed 
is meaningless; if the potion were so volatile that it would have to 
be drunk within seconds of being finished, there would have been 
other arrangements made. Snape probably took a good few minutes to 
wander up to Lupin's office from his dungeon, so the one minute of 
delay is really of no importance to the potion's effectiveness. 
Now, had Lupin ignored the potion after Snape left, had we not seen 
him drinking it at all and were left wondering *if* he ever drank 
it -- then yes, I would be open to considering Lupin being 
resentful, obstinate, dangerously and willfully irresponsible. As it 
stands, I'll agree to the power play (Lupin showing Snape his 
limits -- you brewed it, buddy, the rest is my business), but not 
the implication that Lupin's forgetting the potion on the night of 
the Shrieking Shack has its roots here, that a sinister pattern 
lasting throughout the year begins to evolve here.

(See also my response to Magpie -- I won't deny that the scene might 
serve as foreshadowing, but that's not the same.)

 
> Carol responds:
> I keep seeing the assumption that the little cutting hex that 
Severus
> uses on James is Sectumsempra, but where's all the blood? 

Lanval:
"...a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his 
robes with blood." Ootp, Am.Ed., p.647

Sounds like there's enough for a small wound, more than a trickle. 
We don't know how big the gash is, so naturally the effect wouldn't 
be quite as dramatic as it was with Draco. I always assumed it to be 
quite small -- enough to be visible, but small enough not to cause 
James much discomfort.

Carol:
There's only
> a bit spattered on his robes? Where's the danger that no one sees?

Lanval:
Because it was a spell no one seems to recognize, its effects were 
comparatively minor, and it was kind of lost in the rapid sequence 
of events? Mere seconds after James is hit, he has Snape dangling in 
the air. The entertainment value of that certainly would beat a gash 
on James's face for the time being. Later -- we don't know, do we?

Carol: 
 Why
> does everyone from James to Lily act as if Severus has cast 
something
> no worse than a Jelly Legs Jinx? Where's the unhealed cut that
> requires a complex countercurse to cure? If it's really 
Sectumsempra,
> neither James nor Madam Pomfrey could have cured the gash on 
James's
> cheek. We have no indication that he even bears a scar as a result 
of
> that little cutting hex, which can probably be healed as quickly 
and
> easily as DD heals his knife wound in the cave scene in HBP. 
(Surely,
> if Severus had been forced to recite his chant to cure James, we'd
> have heard about it.) 
> 

Lanval:
We know nothing of the aftermath of this scene. We don't know if 
James ended up in the hospital wing because the cut wouldn't heal, 
we don't know if Madam Pomfrey is unable to heal Sectumsempra, we 
don't know if it left a small scar. Why *would* we hear of Snape 
being forced to recite the countercurse? Lupin and Sirius don't 
mention anything, but time was limited in the fireplace talk, and 
JKR might have her reasons not to give us that info just yet. We 
hear Sirius and Lupin making excuses for James, which Harry doesn't 
buy, then the conversation switches to the 'future', James and Lily 
getting together in seventh year. We never find out about the pants 
issue either, do we?


Carol:
> Nor does Severus have any reason, at this point, to invent a Dark
> Curse "for enemies." IMO, that desire for revenge was prompted by 
the
> so-called Prank the following year. 

Lanval:
Carol, are you trying to tell me that at the time of SWM, Snape 
didn't consider James & Co his 'enemies'? That he harbored no 
yearning for revenge just yet at that time?  :)

(JMO, and as an aside, but Snape needs enemies the way a fish needs 
water.)
 
We know that he came to Hogwarts already knowing dark curses; who's 
to say some of those weren't his own inventions? How early did he 
start? The book being a sixth year textbook doesn't have to mean 
anything, if it is indeed his mother's book, he may have been 
reading/studying it as far back as his first year, given how 
precocious he is.


Carol:
I think that the little cutting
> hex was merely a precursor. 

Lanval:
Or else a refined version?


Carol:
At any rate, we can't assume that it was
> Sectumsempra given what we know about that spell's effects, not to
> mention how angry Severus was when he cast that hex. If, in his 
fury,
> he'd set aside the consequences to himself of casting a genuinely 
Dark
> and deadly curse in front of forty or so witnesses, he'd have 
ended up
> in Azkaban despite his youth. So either he controlled the curse 
(and
> someone who didn't know the countercurse was somehow able to heal 
the
> gash and keep James from bleeding to death or having a permanently
> open gash on his cheek) or Sectumsempra proper (and its complex
> countercurse) hadn't been invented yet because Severus did not yet
> have the incentive to invent anything worse than Levicorpus and the
> toenail hex.

Lanval:

About the incentive -- I'd say that by the time we see the boys in 
SWM, Snape may have needed no more incentive to create potentially 
fatal curses for his "enemies" than the fact that they exist. JMO.

Even if he had no serious intention of actually trying them out. The 
mere fact that he knew them might have given him a sense of power.

Going back to the foreshadowing issue. We see Levicorpus being used 
here, and don't see it again until the next book, where it gains a 
certain significance. Sectumsempra shows up in HBP with a bang -- 
wouldn't it be just like JKR to give us an early, harmless glimpse 
of it?

About Snape's anger, we see him losing it in PoA as an adult over 
something much less humiliating than the scene called so 
aptly 'Snape's Worst Memory'. I'm not saying it WAS a full blown 
Sectumsempra (Snape points his wand, whereas Harry 'slashes'), or 
that Snape meant to take James's head off, but he was caught in a 
terrible situation. Teenagers have snapped with less provocation.

I actually always got the impression that the full force of the 
spell missed James. Sirius yells as Snape aims and shoots, a gash 
appears on *the side of James's face*. It seems possible that James 
turned to look as he heard Sirius cry out his warning, and moved out 
the way a few inches. Sounds more possible to me than Snape 
attempting a glancing shot.


Carol:
> I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think we can safely assume
> that the two cutting spells are one and the same just because 
Severus
> cast the first and invented the second. Another thing, too. 
There's no
> indication that the cutting hex was a nonverbal spell. Harry must 
have
> heard the incantation, and if it were "Sectumsempra," surely even 
he
> would remember having heard it somewhere before when he read it in 
the
> margins of the HBP's Potions book.

Lanval:
You're right, of course, we can't safely determine *anything* based 
on what we know. It's only a possibility. Also, I got the impression 
that any spell can be performed nonverbally with practice. 

I don't understand why *must* Harry have heard an incantation? 
According to the scene as written in the book, there simply wasn't 
one, not for the cutting spell, not for the Levicorpus following 
seconds later. 

How do you arrive at there being no indication that those were 
nonverbal spells? Harry heard nothing, only saw flashes of light -- 
on the contrary, I'd say this is about a good an indication that 
those *were* nonverbal as we're going to get from canon. 

> 
> Carol, pretty sure that Sectumsempra was invented in Severus's 
sixth
> year, after the so-called Prank and in retaliation for it
>
Lanval:
Possible. But 'in retaliation' makes it sound as if Snape really, 
really planned to use it. *eg*