Werewolves and RL equivalents (was:Re: Snape - a werewolf bigot?...)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 170459

- Lanval:
> <snip> Carol, are you trying to tell me that at the time of SWM,
Snape didn't consider James & Co his 'enemies'? That he harbored no 
yearning for revenge just yet at that time?  :)
<snip>
> We know that he came to Hogwarts already knowing dark curses; who's
to say some of those weren't his own inventions? How early did he
start? The book being a sixth year textbook doesn't have to mean 
anything, if it is indeed his mother's book, he may have been
reading/studying it as far back as his first year, given how 
precocious he is.
> 
Carol responds:
Already knowing *dark* curses at age eleven? Where does it say that?
Sirius Black says that first-year Severus knew more "curses" (no
"dark") than most seventh years, but as I've pointed out elsewhere,
"curses" is often used for hexes and jinxes, including but not limited
to the Babbling Curse, Blasting Curse, Body-Bind Curse, Curse of the
Bogies, Impediment Curse, Leg-Locker Curse, and Reductor Curse. See my
earlier post 168437 for details:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/168437

Eloise Midgen attempted to curse off her own acne. I seriously doubt
that she used a dark (or Dark) spell on herself, even if it did blow
her nose off. And surely "most seventh years" don't go around casting
Dark curses. We only know of five Dark curses, in any case: the three
Unforgiveable Curses, the Horcrux spell (if that counts as a curse),
and one invented spell by schoolboy Severus.

The other spells in the HBP's Potions book are either schoolboy hexes
(Levicorpus and its countercurse, the toenail hex, Langlock) little
different from, say, Densuageo, the tooth-elongating hex that Draco
tried to use on Harry (which ricochets onto Hermione) or the
boil-causing hex that Harry tries to use on Draco (which ricochets
onto Goyle) or useful charms like Muffliato.

So, yes, Severus considered James and co. his enemies in the same way
that MWPP considered him their enemy or Draco and Harry consider each
other enemies. But up until his humiliation in front of the whole
fifth-year class, followed by what he viewed as a murder attempt, the
enmity was on the schoolboy level. But the murder plot (his view)
would have raised the conflict to a point where Severus wanted a
serious revenge. Sectumsempra can kill. Levicorpus and the toenail hex
and Langlock can't. But he would have been very, very foolish to use
it because he'd have been not only expelled but sentenced to Azkaban.

Carol earlier:
> I think that the little cutting hex was merely a precursor. 
> 

Lanval:
> Or else a refined version?
> 
Carol:
Um, how could a little cutting hex be a "refined version" of a deadly
spell? No, I'm sure it was the other way around. Logically, he would
take an existing cutting hex, say "Sectum" ("cut") and add "Sempra"
("always") to make the gash unhealable except by a countercurse (which
I'm guessing he invented or discovered through research much later,
probably after he'd been stricken by remorse). At any rate, Professor
Snape didn't just wave his wand over Sectumsempra'd Draco using some
nonverbal healing spell as DD did over his knife wound in the cave; he
had to *chant* (or sing) the spell three times. Granted, Draco's
wounds were more extensive than James's by far, but there's no
indication that James was bleeding to death or suffering at all,
nothing Dark about that hex or someone would surely have commented,
nothing that Madam Pomfrey couldn't easily cure or Black or Lupin
would have mentioned it to Harry. (They'd have found a way to blame
Severus rather than making excuses for themselves and James.) Madam
Pomfrey couldn't possibly have known the countercurse for Sectumsempra
unless Severus taught it to her, any more than she can cure Marietta's
pustules without knowing the hex that Hermione used on the parchment
and its countercurse. And if she couldn't cure the cut, she'd have
known it was caused by Dark magic and Severus would have been
expelled. Since he wasn't, and no one suspected Dark magic at the
time, chances are no Dark magic was involved.

> Lanval:
> 
> About the incentive -- I'd say that by the time we see the boys in
SWM, Snape may have needed no more incentive to create potentially
fatal curses for his "enemies" than the fact that they exist. JMO.
> 
> Even if he had no serious intention of actually trying them out. The
mere fact that he knew them might have given him a sense of power.

Carol:
Agree to disagree? There's a lot of difference between hexing someone
in the corridor, or even sneaking up on a person two-on-one, and
exposing them to the danger of a werewolf bait. If that didn't up the
stakes, nothing could. IMO. Also, as Quirrell told Harry, just because
Snape hates someone doesn't mean he wants them dead. Unless, of
course, he thinks they tried to kill *him.*
> 
Lanval:
> Going back to the foreshadowing issue. We see Levicorpus being used
 here, and don't see it again until the next book, where it gains a 
certain significance. Sectumsempra shows up in HBP with a bang -- 
wouldn't it be just like JKR to give us an early, harmless glimpse  of
it? <snip>

Carol:
I don't know. Maybe JKR is just confused in her maths, as usual. It's
possible, of course, that our precocious Severus was writing his
potions improvements and invented spells in what had been his mother's
book before his sixth year, but it's also possible that JKR made a
mistake (the Charlie Weasley problem in miniature) by having the OoP
scene involve a spell (Levicorpus) that Severus hadn't actually
invented yet. But regardless, Levicorpus (a nonverbal spell that James
shouldn't even have known!!!) was almost certainly invented before
Sectumsempra. One is a schoolboy hex that can be used for mischievous
purposes (at least one Death Eater seems to have used it on a
levitated Muggle, Mrs. Robinson); the other is designed to seriously
injure or kill. I can imagine Severus picturing himself with a
werewolf bite and imagining what he could do to get the Marauders
back. If he could do it without being caught and expelled. Obviously,
he never attempted it or he'd never have finished Hogwarts, much less
taught there. I don't think there's such a thing as a harmless deadly
curse. Sectumsempra is deadly. It's the one and only Dark curse in the
HBP's book, and I think it marks a turning point in his development, a
first step toward becoming so focused on revenge that he becomes a
Death Eater. The difference (in degree of Darkness) between
Sectumsempra and Levicorpus is the difference between Crucio and Jelly
Legs.

As for the significance of Levicorpus, as far as I can see, it
consists of Severus's own spell having been used against him, a fact
that seems to rankle almost as much as the humiliation of having his
greying underwear exposed, twice, to all the fifth years. (I don't
think that James actually pantsed him, or he wouldn't have been so
concerned about having his own spells used against him.)
>
> 
> 
Carol earlier:
> > I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think we can safely
assume that the two cutting spells are one and the same just because
Severus cast the first and invented the second. Another thing, too. 
There's no indication that the cutting hex was a nonverbal spell.
Harry must have heard the incantation, and if it were "Sectumsempra,"
surely even he would remember having heard it somewhere before when he
read it in the margins of the HBP's Potions book.
> 
> Lanval:
> You're right, of course, we can't safely determine *anything* based 
> on what we know. It's only a possibility. Also, I got the impression 
> that any spell can be performed nonverbally with practice. 
> 
> I don't understand why *must* Harry have heard an incantation? 
> According to the scene as written in the book, there simply wasn't 
> one, not for the cutting spell, not for the Levicorpus following 
> seconds later. 
> 
> How do you arrive at there being no indication that those were 
> nonverbal spells? Harry heard nothing, only saw flashes of light -- 
> on the contrary, I'd say this is about a good an indication that 
> those *were* nonverbal as we're going to get from canon. 

Carol responds:
I think that JKR was deliberately not including the spell in the
narrative because she doesn't want us to know which spell was used.
Besides, all the boys are fifth years and nonverbal spells aren't
taught until sixth year. Not even Hermione masters them until then.
But, anyway, my whole point was that we can't *assume* that the
cutting hex was Sectumsempra, and you've conceded that point, which is
all I wanted. We seem to agree that the cutting hex wasn't a
full-fledged version. I think it was an ordinary hex of the sort
schoolboys routinely use on each other but maybe slightly darker (but
not actually Dark), intended to hurt, certainly, because Severus was
furious, but not intended to kill. Badly aimed or not, it caused a
gash in James' cheek, and if if were Sectumsempra, it would have
remained unhealed unless the inventor of the curse administered the
countercurse himself, and I can't see that happening. Sectumsempra
means "cut *always*." It's Dark magic, after all.
> > 
> > Carol, pretty sure that Sectumsempra was invented in Severus's 
sixth year, after the so-called Prank and in retaliation for it
> >
> Lanval:
> Possible. But 'in retaliation' makes it sound as if Snape really, 
really planned to use it. *eg*
>
Carol:
Actually, yes. I think that at the time he invented it, Teen!Snape was
hurt and angry and bent on revenge. He felt toward the Marauders as
Harry now feels toward Snape. And that desire led him straight to
Voldemort. Only later, after he felt remorse, would he have invented a
countercurse. 

I think that the desire for vengeance for the Prank, marked by the
invention of Sectumsempra, was Severus's first step toward becoming a
Death Eater, just as the desire for vengeance for his father's arrest
led to Draco's becoming a DE. Severus's enlightenment came when he
realized that Voldemort intended to murder an innocent baby based on
his information' Draco's came when he found out that killing isn't as
easy as he had believed.

Carol, not arguing for Saint Severus, who exists only in Roman
Catholic canon, not JKR's