Werewolves and RL equivalents

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 170485


> Mike:
> > I've reread both the first and second Hospital scenes (pre- and 
> > post time-turned) and nowhere in there is there any indication that 
> > either Snape or Fudge know what's happened with Lupin. In fact, 
> > there is no indication that Fudge even knew Lupin was involved at 
> > this point.  

wynnleaf
This is incorrect.  At the beginning of Hermione's Secret, Snape says
to Fudge (in the midst of other things), "Consider Minister - against
all school rules - after all the precautions put in place for his
protection - out-of-bounds, at night, consorting with a werewolf and a
murderer..."  Rather obviously, Snape told Fudge about Lupin's
involvement.  And since Lupin said that Dumbledore had to convince
Fudge that he (Lupin) was innocent of helping Sirius, it seems pretty
clear that Fudge had been told enough to think Lupin might be guilty
of helping Sirius.

Mike
There may well be the logical conjecture, between 
> > these two, that Lupin has transformed and is loose on the grounds.

wynnleaf
Well, I certainly think so!  After all, Snape was perfectly well aware
that Lupin was about to transform and hadn't had the wolfsbane potion.
 Of course Snape knew he transformed.
 
Mike
> > But they have no idea of the circumstances surrounding that 
> > transformation and whether or not Lupin was ever a danger to the 
> > kids. And they only speak of the near miss of the Dementors.

wynnleaf
It's true that Fudge may not have learned of the actual transformation
circumstances.  But Snape would have told Fudge the circumstances that
led him to Lupin's office in the first place (Lupin not taking the
potion), and Fudge would therefore know that Lupin was down at the
Shrieking Shack with 3 kids about to transform without the potion. 
Snape's comment is in what appears to be a kind of re-cap of what he'd
already told Fudge.  It would seem highly likely that he'd have
included in his initial comments to Fudge (not given in Harry's
hearing) all of the basics of the story which quite naturally include
all of Lupin's actions of which Snape was aware.     

Later, Sirius told Dumbledore what occurred and he'd surely have
included the reason for Peter's escape.  So Dumbledore knew that Lupin
had transformed right in front of the children.

Fudge would have known from Snape's story that Lupin was involved in
helping Sirius AND that Lupin had not taken his potion and been down
there with 3 children.  Fudge, even being a bit dim, could easily
figure out that Lupin had put kids at risk to transform in an
unprotected state.  No, Fudge probably *didn't* know for sure that
Lupin transformed right with the children -- unless Fudge learned some
of Sirius' statement which would include an explanation for how
Pettigrew got away.


> Mike:
> > I rather like the speculation that Dumbledore thinks that this will
> > be a rather excellent adventure for Harry and Hermione. :-) 

wynnleaf
Dumbledore allows Harry to have any number of adventures.  And
Dumbledore congratulates Harry afterward regarding some quite risky
adventures.  It doesn't absolve characters like Quirrell, Voldemort,
etc for subjecting Harry to life-threatening situations.  I don't
think it absolves Lupin either.

Knowing that Harry or the Trio will make it through in one piece isn't
the same as giving those who put them at risk a free pass to do so.

> 
> Jen:  I think this is true when looking inside the story.  I don't 
> believe Dumbledore would really let Harry and Hermione go out on the 
> grounds if he thought they were in grave danger.  

wynnleaf
Dumbledore already knew that they must have made it through safely
because he knew Harry had done something to get rid of the crowd of
dementors.  Dumbledore may know even more than that, as he often seems
strangely knowing (but that's another topic).  Anyway, the point is
that Dumbledore knowing that the children will make it through
unscathed is not the same as Dumbledore having no problem with Lupin
transforming into a werewolf around children.

> 
> Mike:
> > Not mystifying to me. ;-) Snape wanted to do as much damage as he
> > could to Lupin. The morning after sees no change in Snape's position
> > vis-a-vis Lupin from the one he took in the Shack. 

wynnleaf
Actually, we don't know that.  We have no idea when Dumbledore went
about explaining things to Snape as regards Peter being alive. 
Dumbledore seems to me to be giving Snape a sort of "heads up"
regarding the use of the time-turner (which surely Hermione's primary
teachers would know about and was a Ministry approved when given to
her -- it's not a state secret, after all), when Dumbledore told Snape
that the Trio couldn't have been involved in Sirius' escape without
being in two places at once.  Snape ceased his complaints immediately
and left the room -- still angry, but at that point he'd have realized
that Dumbledore was behind the use of the time-turner to help Sirius
escape.  Even if you don't think Dumbledore was signaling the use of
the time-turner to Snape, it's still quite possible that Dumbledore
told Snape that night about Peter being alive.

However, learning that Lupin wasn't helping a crazed killer still
doesn't change the fact that Lupin had forgotten his potion and
endangered students, nor did it change the fact that Lupin had
deceived Dumbledore and possibly endangered students all year through
keeping vital info secret.  Because of that, Snape could still tell
the students about Lupin being a werewolf with the excuse (whatever
his real motives were) that the students now had a need to know. 

> Jen:  The bottom line for me is I read the interaction between Lupin 
> and Dumbledore as a nice character moment rather having undercurrents 
> of something else, so I didn't feel the need for reluctance or last 
> requests on Dumbledore's part.  Dumbledore had accepted Lupin's 
> decision and was treating him with the dignity and reserve that Lupin 
> would expect and find comfortable.  Lupin is a person who exists 
> within a world of formalities and their interaction appears very 
> authentic for both characters rather than having a subtext of loss of 
> faith on Dumbledore's part.  

wynnleaf
The problem with that one-and-only scene between Dumbledore and Lupin
is that we get really *no* indication of Dumbledore's attitude toward
Lupin from Dumbledore's own comments.  The only word that in any way
describes Dumbledore's demeanor, manner, attitude, etc. is "soberly."
 The only other indicators we get of their attitudes toward each other
at that point is 1.  Harry's feeling *after* Dumbledore entered that
Lupin wanted to leave as soon as a possible and 2. Lupin's comment to
Dumbledore not to see him to his carriage.  Further, in the scene
immediately following, as Dumbledore talked to Harry, one would think
there'd be some mention of Lupin.  Even without undermining another
teacher by showing any anger toward Snape (if Dumbledore was angry
with him), wouldn't one expect *something* that at least alludes to
Lupin's part in everything?  Or how about some sign of regret that
Lupin had to leave?  Some comment about Harry's discovery that Lupin
is a werewolf?  Anything?  Instead, Dumbledore says nothing whatsoever
about Lupin.  

When I combine that with Dumbledore's lack of any attempt to keep
Lupin on as a teacher or at Hogwarts (even without being in the DADA
position), that leads me to believe that Dumbledore likely wanted
Lupin to go.


> 
> Carol:
> > Anyway, aside from illustrating Lupin's apparent inability to admit
> > full responsibility for his own actions and face their 
> > consequences, I think the reason JKR had Lupin mention Snape is
> > simply to make Snape look spiteful, paving the way for the 
> > seemingly evil Snape at the end of HBP. (Not that Lupin has any
> > idea that that's going to happen; I'm talking about JKR's authorial
> > strategies here.) If Snape doesn't appear to be bent on vengeance
> > against the "innocent" Marauders, how are we (and Harry) going to
> > suspect him of being actually evil when the time comes? 
> 
> Jen:  I'm snipping down to these points because everything you said 
> leads here.  And what I'm reading is that there are significant 
> revelations in POA that should not be accepted as they are stated 
> because they will play later into a reversal about Snape.  The 
> problem is that authorial strategy has no end - how many parts of 
> each book will be part of this reversal?  

wynnleaf
Snape is probably the source of some of the biggest revelations of the
series.  JKR has built Harry's hatred of Snape steadily over the books
and has been careful to give readers more and more "evidence" that
Snape operates on petty grudges and hatreds.  If she is going to
reverse this, she doesn't need to go back and one-by-one reverse every
instance of her supposed "evidence" in the previous books.  All she
needs to give us (and Harry) is the truth about Snape, through which
perspective we can then view all the previous books, statements from
other characters, etc.

Jen
If Snape isn't really 
> operating from a 'schoolboy grudge', if he doesn't really 
> believe 'vengeance is very sweet', if Lupin wasn't right that Snape  
> talking to the Slytherins played some role in his leaving...well, the 
> story in POA starts to internally combust and a basic facet of 
> Snape's characterization, his long-standing animosity toward the 
> Marauders, is lost imo.  

wynnleaf
His longstanding animosity toward them doesn't combust, only his some
of his *reasons* for that animosity and the validity of his reasons. 
And that's already been refuted, even internally in POA.  Lupin calls
it a "schoolboy grudge."  Snape calls it attempted murder.  It's clear
even in POA that Snape believed Sirius wanted to kill him.  Sirius, in
Snape's hearing, seemed to support that notion (at least, Snape would
think he was supporting it) saying that Snape deserved it.  If Snape's
belief was correct, hating someone for attempted murder is not a
"school boy grudge."  And as far as Snape's motives, what matters here
is what he *believes* to be true.

Later, in OOTP, Dumbledore refers to Snape's feelings (and Dumbledore
seems to be including Snape's feelings about the past, including
Marauder interactions) as "wounds" that go "too deep for healing." 
Clearly, Dumbledore doesn't rate this as a petty school-boy grudge
that Snape out to just "get over."

That doesn't mean Snape wasn't perfectly sincere about revenge being
sweet.  But characters are clearly able to have several motivations at
once, and to assume that Snape's motivations are fueled solely by
revenge is, in my opinion, to miss many of his other motivations. 
Snape is far more three-dimensional than that.


> Jen:  It's not just Snape's personality that gets in the way of 
> identifying with his side of the story over Harry's!  For instance, 
> the above description leaves out some critical information about 
> Snape's actions.  Like the fact that Harry knows exactly what's 
> coming next when Snape grabs the Invisibility Cloak and it involves 
> Snape's refusal to listen to the truth in the Shack and then oh-so-
> carefully placing Sirius on a stretcher in order to take him up to 
> the castle for a Kiss.  Harry and Hermione haven't saved Sirius yet 
> when all this is occuring; his fate still hangs in the balance. So 
> no, it isn't always the naivete of the reader that interferes with 
> the reading of Snape but Snape himself, always his own worst enemy.
> 

wynnleaf
I think most readers, at least on first reading, are prone to follow
Harry's assumptions.  Further, especially on the first read, it's easy
to feel as though Snape must know all of the same information that the
reader and Harry knows and forget, or lose track of the fact that
Snape didn't hear all of the explanations.  Further, the reader tends
to follow Harry's assessment of the circumstances, including Harry's
assessment of what Snape is doing, why he's doing it, etc.  Harry
doesn't see the scene from Snape's point of view, and without taking
ourselves out of Harry's pov, and seeing it more objectively, neither
does the reader.  Harry isn't thinking -- and it's therefore not
pointed out to the reader -- that Snape entered the scene to see what
appeared to be a crazed murderer and his accomplice with a badly
injured student, and the accomplice, Lupin going on and on about
breaking Dumbledore's trust, sounding a bit like a villain reviewing
his actions.  Then Sirius chimes in and when Snape's name comes up,
Sirius expresses his approval of what Snape believes was attempted
murder and that Snape deserved it.  Then, as soon as Snape reveals
himself, Lupin calls him a "fool" and refers to what Snape sees as
attempted murder as a school-boy grudge.  Then as soon as Sirius
starts to speak to Snape, his first words to him are "the joke's on
you," which sounds to Snape just like the bullying Sirius of old. 
These two men acted pretty much exactly as Snape would have expected,
therefore doing nothing more than cementing his interpretation of the
scene.

But because we are reading from Harry's point of view, we don't really
pay attention to Snape's interpretation of what's going on.  Oh, yes,
we read his comments, but we see it from Harry's perspective, as
though Snape is just disregarding the obvious.  Only it's *not*
obvious when Snape hasn't seen and heard all the same things Harry did.

JKR uses this method of writing to give the reader the same impression
of Snape as Harry has -- that Snape's hatred over a school boy grudge
is so deep that he will do anything, and overlook all manner of clear
evidence, in order to get revenge.  Is the intent to set us up once
more to see Snape in the worst light?  Of course.  JKR does it
repeatedly throughout the books.  That's why Snape will be one of her
biggest "twists" because she's set it up throughout the series, rather
than just in one book.  

wynnleaf