Werewolves and RL equivalents

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 170483

Mike:
> I've reread both the first and second Hospital scenes (pre- and 
> post time-turned) and nowhere in there is there any indication that 
> either Snape or Fudge know what's happened with Lupin. In fact, 
> there is no indication that Fudge even knew Lupin was involved at 
> this point.  There may well be the logical conjecture, between 
> these two, that Lupin has transformed and is loose on the grounds. 
> But they have no idea of the circumstances surrounding that 
> transformation and whether or not Lupin was ever a danger to the 
> kids. And they only speak of the near miss of the Dementors.

Jen:  Ooo, interesting.  You're right that Snape didn't see the 
transformation take place or know what transpired afterward.  It 
does seem logical to me since Snape brews and brings the potion to 
Lupin that he knows when the full moon has arrived, but that point 
doesn't come up between Snape and Fudge.  

Fudge does know Lupin is involved though, since Snape talks about the 
children consorting with a 'murderer and werewolf.'  Unless I'm 
misunderstanding your point?  Not to say he knows Lupin is in his 
transformed state.

> Magpie:
> Well, yeah. None of them bring it up as a priority. But I doubt
> they'd have argued with someone who did bring it up. It's just a
> slightly different thing--but not necessarily that important. Just
> as DD isn't being shown being angry at having to let Lupin go, he's
> also not angry at the kids being in danger.

Mike:
> I rather like the speculation that Dumbledore thinks that this will
> be a rather excellent adventure for Harry and Hermione. :-) Besides,
> in JKR's time-turning universe, Dumbledore already knows that the 
> duo saved Buckbeak and cast a Patronus Charm that fended off a 
> hundred Dementors, before he sends them back. He knows he didn't do
> this stuff. :-) The only thing he couldn't be sure of is whether 
> they succeeded in rescuing Sirius, but that seems to be the easiest
> of the tasks at hand, and that's the information most stressed by 
> DD in his briefing.

Jen:  I think this is true when looking inside the story.  I don't 
believe Dumbledore would really let Harry and Hermione go out on the 
grounds if he thought they were in grave danger.  Like you said, 
Dumbledore is already certain of the outcome and also trusts that 
Hermione wouldn't do anything to mess with the time-space continuum 
(or allow Harry to do so, maybe the most important component of the 
plan!).

Mike:
> Not mystifying to me. ;-) Snape wanted to do as much damage as he
> could to Lupin. The morning after sees no change in Snape's position
> vis-a-vis Lupin from the one he took in the Shack. 

Jen:  I'm pretty certain JKR doesn't include information in her big 
endings that have no meaning for the big ending. ;) I read revenge 
written all over Snape telling the Slytherins even though it's not 
exactly clear to me what Snape hoped to achieve.  I just had a sense 
Snape wasn't going to wait around for Dumbledore to do the 'right' 
thing when he didn't after the Prank in Snape's eyes and when the 
events of the night before had Dumbledore choosing the Trio's 
(Marauders') story over his version.  

Magpie:
> This doesn't mean that Hagrid and Snape are Dumbledore's 
> confidantes or that they're let in on things others aren't. I think
> they just have a far more intimate relationship, one where
> Dumbledore says stuff like "I trust Hagrid with my life" or "I 
> trust Severus Snape completely."  Placing trust in these two 
> despite their many flaws seems kind of important to who Dumbledore 
> is. He doesn't have the same relationship with Lupin. He's not one 
> of Dumbledore's projects.  Which I kind of love--because honestly I 
> think Lupin *could have been* one of his projects but is so good at
> bucking it.

Jen: It muddies the water a little bit for me that his expressions of 
trust come at times others are expressing mistrust.  He also vouches 
for Sirius in the hospital wing in the face of Snape questioning his 
presence.  But I do agree Dumbledore has indeed included Snape and 
Hagrid in the ever-growing group of people, beings and beasts under 
his protection at Hogwarts.  I just wouldn't say DD does this because 
he sees them as more loyal so much as feeling more responsible for 
protecting and defending them.

Magpie: 
> True, but what I was arguing against was the idea that Dumbledore is
> that Snape outs Lupin and therefore Dumbledore must let Lupin go.
> That just goes against Dumbledore's character throughout the books--
> Snape couldn't play him that way, imo. He wouldn't, imo, fire 
> someone because Snape told students that he was a werewolf and
> therefore tomorrow there would be angry letters so he'll give up.

Jen:  The bottom line for me is I read the interaction between Lupin 
and Dumbledore as a nice character moment rather having undercurrents 
of something else, so I didn't feel the need for reluctance or last 
requests on Dumbledore's part.  Dumbledore had accepted Lupin's 
decision and was treating him with the dignity and reserve that Lupin 
would expect and find comfortable.  Lupin is a person who exists 
within a world of formalities and their interaction appears very 
authentic for both characters rather than having a subtext of loss of 
faith on Dumbledore's part.  

Carol:
> Anyway, aside from illustrating Lupin's apparent inability to admit
> full responsibility for his own actions and face their 
> consequences, I think the reason JKR had Lupin mention Snape is
> simply to make Snape look spiteful, paving the way for the 
> seemingly evil Snape at the end of HBP. (Not that Lupin has any
> idea that that's going to happen; I'm talking about JKR's authorial
> strategies here.) If Snape doesn't appear to be bent on vengeance
> against the "innocent" Marauders, how are we (and Harry) going to
> suspect him of being actually evil when the time comes? 

Jen:  I'm snipping down to these points because everything you said 
leads here.  And what I'm reading is that there are significant 
revelations in POA that should not be accepted as they are stated 
because they will play later into a reversal about Snape.  The 
problem is that authorial strategy has no end - how many parts of 
each book will be part of this reversal?  If Snape isn't really 
operating from a 'schoolboy grudge', if he doesn't really 
believe 'vengeance is very sweet', if Lupin wasn't right that Snape  
talking to the Slytherins played some role in his leaving...well, the 
story in POA starts to internally combust and a basic facet of 
Snape's characterization, his long-standing animosity toward the 
Marauders, is lost imo.  

Carol:
> The reader who, unlike Harry, is willing to look past Snape's
> personality can see Snape conjuring stretchers to take the 
> unconsciouskids and Black, all of them in danger from both a 
> werewolf and any returning Dementors, back to the castle as a 
> responsible, even noble, action, but Time!Turned Harry's reaction 
> to Snape's entering the Shrieking Shack is to clench his fists and
> snarl, "Get your filthy hands off it [the Invisibility Cloak]!" (PoA
> Am. ed. 403). And when Hermione says, "Harry, look at Snape!" and 
> Harry sees Snape conjuring stretchers and lifting their unconscious
> bodies onto them to get them off the grounds and into the hospital
> wing, he says nothing. We don't even get Harry's reaction, just an
> objective description of Snape's actions (412). Evidently Harry 
> pushes the thought from his mind because he doesn't want to react
> favorably to anything Snape does. No credit for Snape where credit
> is due because Harry, like Sirius Black, can't see the good in him,
> even as early as PoA. And since the reader sees from Harry's pov,
> JKR seems to expect a similar reaction from most readers, 
> especially young readers who empathize with Harry.

Jen:  It's not just Snape's personality that gets in the way of 
identifying with his side of the story over Harry's!  For instance, 
the above description leaves out some critical information about 
Snape's actions.  Like the fact that Harry knows exactly what's 
coming next when Snape grabs the Invisibility Cloak and it involves 
Snape's refusal to listen to the truth in the Shack and then oh-so-
carefully placing Sirius on a stretcher in order to take him up to 
the castle for a Kiss.  Harry and Hermione haven't saved Sirius yet 
when all this is occuring; his fate still hangs in the balance. So 
no, it isn't always the naivete of the reader that interferes with 
the reading of Snape but Snape himself, always his own worst enemy.

Jen