Snape, Sectumsempra, and other Dark Curses(was: Werewolves and RL equivalents)

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170500

> > 
> Carol responds:
> Already knowing *dark* curses at age eleven? Where does it say 
that?
> Sirius Black says that first-year Severus knew more "curses" (no
> "dark") than most seventh years, but as I've pointed out elsewhere,
> "curses" is often used for hexes and jinxes, including but not 
limited
> to the Babbling Curse, Blasting Curse, Body-Bind Curse, Curse of 
the
> Bogies, Impediment Curse, Leg-Locker Curse, and Reductor Curse. 
See my
> earlier post 168437 for details:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/168437
> 
> Eloise Midgen attempted to curse off her own acne. I seriously 
doubt
> that she used a dark (or Dark) spell on herself, even if it did 
blow
> her nose off. And surely "most seventh years" don't go around 
casting
> Dark curses. We only know of five Dark curses, in any case: the 
three
> Unforgiveable Curses, the Horcrux spell (if that counts as a 
curse),
> and one invented spell by schoolboy Severus.
> 
> The other spells in the HBP's Potions book are either schoolboy 
hexes
> (Levicorpus and its countercurse, the toenail hex, Langlock) little
> different from, say, Densuageo, the tooth-elongating hex that Draco
> tried to use on Harry (which ricochets onto Hermione) or the
> boil-causing hex that Harry tries to use on Draco (which ricochets
> onto Goyle) or useful charms like Muffliato.
> 

Lanval:
Has JKR herself ever defined "dark curses"? Just curious. Besides , 
I can think of several harmless looking devices that are deadly -- 
artifacts from the Black house or B&B's. Heck, even the twins's 
pills which cause heavy bleeding, albeit from a preexisting wound it 
would seem, that won't stop unless the proper remedy is taken, and 
could thus be potentially fatal. Katie is after all 'chalk white' by 
the time people notice there may be a problem.  

Snape thinks he detects "dark magic" in the Map. I've seen fans 
agree with him. 

You could say, well, those are objects, not curses, but at some 
point those objects needed to be bewitched, cursed, whatever you 
want to call it. 

I've heard it argued that memory charms are 'dark' by definition,as 
are love potions, because they're too close to Imperius for comfort.
 
What about Oppugno? From HP Lexicon:
*"oppugno" L. to attack, assault. Causes conjured creatures under 
the control of the caster to attack the target.* 
Hermione uses canaries. What if it had been pitbulls? "attack, 
assault" sounds pretty dark to me, and was created with an intent to 
hurt.

I'm sure I'm overlooking some more.

Sirius also says Snape was "a litte oddball who was up to his eyes 
in the Dark Arts". How does that exclude knowing Dark Curses? And 
then he fell in with Malfoy, Bellatrix, and the rest. I can perhaps 
accept that Sectumsempra was the only dark curse Snape ever created, 
but not that he didn't *know* many others, even at a young age.

 
>Carol:
> So, yes, Severus considered James and co. his enemies in the same 
way
> that MWPP considered him their enemy or Draco and Harry consider 
each
> other enemies. But up until his humiliation in front of the whole
> fifth-year class, followed by what he viewed as a murder attempt, 
the
> enmity was on the schoolboy level. 

Lanval:
Maybe. Maybe not. We don't see into Snape's mind. Plenty of harmless 
seeming kids in recent years are later shown to have harbored 
murderous fantasies for years. This usually comes out after they've 
gone on a killing spree.


Carol:
But the murder plot (his view)
> would have raised the conflict to a point where Severus wanted a
> serious revenge. Sectumsempra can kill. Levicorpus and the toenail 
hex
> and Langlock can't. But he would have been very, very foolish to 
use
> it because he'd have been not only expelled but sentenced to 
Azkaban.
> 

Lanval:
As I've pointed out above, a cunning wizard can kill using all sorts 
of spells, hexes and curses, objects and creatures, that may not 
have been invented *only* to kill. 

Numerous Snape fans across the globe believe Sirius tried to kill 
Snape. He didn't require a deadly curse for that now, did he?

Again, I'm not saying Snape planned murder while at school, only 
that studying and perhaps inventing Dark Curses may have given him 
some satisfaction, and a certain sense of security. 



> Carol:
> Um, how could a little cutting hex be a "refined version" of a 
deadly
> spell?  

Lanval:
The same way I can use a butcher's knife to daintily trim a steak, 
or cut someone's throat?

Seems to me that wand movement is crucial. Harry slashes wildly. 
Severus points and fires. The point of Sectumsempra, as you mention, 
is that the wounds don't seem to heal unless a counterspell is used. 
Rip someone's chest open -- death will occur pretty soon. Make a 
nice little cut at the jugular -- same thing. Cut muscle or fat, 
like cheeks, arms, leg -- and you have a continually oozing cut. And 
time to work on it if it's small. So it's not always deadly. Depends 
entirely on the spellcaster's control.

Carol:
No, I'm sure it was the other way around. Logically, he would
> take an existing cutting hex, say "Sectum" ("cut") and add "Sempra"
> ("always") to make the gash unhealable except by a countercurse 
(which
> I'm guessing he invented or discovered through research much later,
> probably after he'd been stricken by remorse).

Lanval:
Er. Remorse for what?

Ah, but Snape is much too careful. And self-preserving. Any spell 
can be used against the inventor himself, right? Look at Levicorpus. 
No, I'm sure he invented the countercurse right along with the 
curse. It would be the logical and smart thing to do. Especially 
since Sectumsempra appears to be an awfully easy spell to learn. Or 
maybe Harry's just becoming so good at it that he gets it right on 
the first try (same for Levicorpus)? But think of how long he took 
to perform a simple Accio just a couple years before. If magic were 
as easy as simply reading the spell incantation, and saying it out 
loud with one's wand pointed, what are all those classes at Hogwarts 
for?

No, it seems to me that Snape created some curses here that were so 
easy to pick up that he had to fear of them being used against 
himself. Or, if you want to think of him as less selfish, he may 
have considered that an innocent person could get hurt. Either way, 
no remorse is required.


Carol:
 At any rate, Professor
> Snape didn't just wave his wand over Sectumsempra'd Draco using 
some
> nonverbal healing spell as DD did over his knife wound in the 
cave; he
> had to *chant* (or sing) the spell three times. 

Lanval:
"Pushing Harry roughly aside, he knelt over Malfoy, drew his wand, 
and traced it over the deep wounds Harry's curse had made, muttering 
an incantation that sounded almost like song." HBP, p.523

I know this is the quote that singlehandedly established Snape in 
Fandom as the Singing Healer, *g* Well, he *mutters*. And the 
incantation sounds *almost* like song. I see it for now as just 
another countercurse, because we don't know much about healing 
countercurses. We don't witness, for example, the Healers at St 
Mungo's trying out antidotes and spells on Arthur Weasley.

Who's to say DD's spell isn't a silent chant? Surely DD could pull 
it off?

As for the three times, that clearly had to do with the severity of 
the injuries. It would hardly be required for a small gash, IMO.
 
Carol:
Granted, Draco's
> wounds were more extensive than James's by far, but there's no
> indication that James was bleeding to death or suffering at all,
> nothing Dark about that hex or someone would surely have commented,
> nothing that Madam Pomfrey couldn't easily cure or Black or Lupin
> would have mentioned it to Harry. (They'd have found a way to blame
> Severus rather than making excuses for themselves and James.) Madam
> Pomfrey couldn't possibly have known the countercurse for 
Sectumsempra
> unless Severus taught it to her, any more than she can cure 
Marietta's
> pustules without knowing the hex that Hermione used on the 
parchment
> and its countercurse. And if she couldn't cure the cut, she'd have
> known it was caused by Dark magic and Severus would have been
> expelled. Since he wasn't, and no one suspected Dark magic at the
> time, chances are no Dark magic was involved.
> 
Lanval:
By that logic Fred and George would have been expelled when they 
took Katie to the hospital wing, because it was their pill that made 
her bleed like a stuck pig and turned a nosebleed into a potentially 
life-threatening situation. And if they didn't take her (merely took 
her up to the common room, where they handed her the antidote pill), 
then surely Angelina and the others would have been a little more 
upset at the  twins having such dark artifacts in their pockets? 

Do we have any canon that anyone but Madam Pomfrey worked on 
Marietta? Who's to say *nobody* could find out the countercurse? The 
Healers found a way eventually for Arthur to heal, without asking LV 
for the properties of the snake venom. I think we know too little of 
Magic to determine without fail that every curse must have only one 
countercurse, and that this can be known only to the inventor until 
he or she shares it with the world. Seems to me that it's not only a 
Healer's job to study and memorize known curses and the matching 
countercurses, but also to be creative and find ways to come up with 
remedies on their own when confronted with unknown curses. 

 
> Carol:
> Agree to disagree? There's a lot of difference between hexing 
someone
> in the corridor, or even sneaking up on a person two-on-one, and
> exposing them to the danger of a werewolf bait. If that didn't up 
the
> stakes, nothing could. IMO. Also, as Quirrell told Harry, just 
because
> Snape hates someone doesn't mean he wants them dead. Unless, of
> course, he thinks they tried to kill *him.*
> > 
Lanval:
I wouldn't rely too much on what Quirrell says, but... *g*

But yes, of course we have to agree to disagree, because we won't 
change one another's opinion on Snape. We can still discuss facts, 
though. 


> Carol:
> I don't know. Maybe JKR is just confused in her maths, as usual. 
It's
> possible, of course, that our precocious Severus was writing his
> potions improvements and invented spells in what had been his 
mother's
> book before his sixth year, but it's also possible that JKR made a
> mistake (the Charlie Weasley problem in miniature) by having the 
OoP
> scene involve a spell (Levicorpus) that Severus hadn't actually
> invented yet. But regardless, Levicorpus (a nonverbal spell that 
James
> shouldn't even have known!!!) was almost certainly invented before
> Sectumsempra. One is a schoolboy hex that can be used for 
mischievous
> purposes (at least one Death Eater seems to have used it on a
> levitated Muggle, Mrs. Robinson); the other is designed to 
seriously
> injure or kill. 

Lanval:
Well, that argument can be made if education, magical talent, and 
emotion are to be relied on to progress in a linear fashion 
throughout one's life. 

Only I don't think they do. 

<some snippage>


Carol:
> I think that the desire for vengeance for the Prank, marked by the
> invention of Sectumsempra, was Severus's first step toward 
becoming a
> Death Eater, just as the desire for vengeance for his father's 
arrest
> led to Draco's becoming a DE. Severus's enlightenment came when he
> realized that Voldemort intended to murder an innocent baby based 
on
> his information' Draco's came when he found out that killing isn't 
as
> easy as he had believed.
> 
> Carol, not arguing for Saint Severus, who exists only in Roman
> Catholic canon, not JKR's
>

Lanval:
See, and I get a creepy vibe from Teen Snape, as early as SWM (which 
isn't to say I don't feel bad for him!). His way to becoming a DE 
began long ago, IMO, when he became fascinated with the Dark Arts. 
And I don't see the "innocent baby" being the reason for his remorse 
(if there was any; besides, how many innocents were killed during 
Snape's DE time?), but tend to be in the Snape-loved-or-was-obsessed-
with-Lily camp. If he had remorse, I think it was over her.

Yes, we will definitely have to agree to disagree. :)

Lanval, who isn't arguing for ESE!Snape, and patiently waits for 
whatever outcome DH will offer us.

> zgirnius:
> The arrangement could have been changed, either as a result of 
this 
> incident or for other reasons (as Lupin seems to have students 
hang 
> around him, going to Snape's dungeon, which students avoid like 
the 
> plague, would provide privacy). Or, it could be that Lupin did 
miss 
> his appointed time to stop by Snape's owing to his meeting Harry - 
I 
> doubt he knew Harry would not have permission to go to Hogsmeade 
with 
> his friends.
> 
> Or Snape could be lying in the Shack, but why? Why accuse Lupin of 
> carelessness, when he has already accused him of being the 
accomplice 
> of the mass-murderer Sirius Black? Especially as he says the bit 
> about Lupin forgetting in such a matter of course way, he is just 
> outlining the facts that led him to follow Lupin, without placing 
any 
> emphasis on this (supposed) mistake by Lupin.
> 

Lanval:
It's difficult to determine, isn't it, without a statement from the 
author. It could be a mistake, too. Lupin needed to forget the 
potion, and Snape needed to find the map, which was in Lupin's 
office, and Lupin had to be gone from the office by then. Maybe JKR 
really just overlooked the details of the first scene.



> zgirnius:
> This touches on the issue of what makes this Snape's Worst Memory 
> (assuming that it is. I tend to want to ask, 'In whose opinion?' 
but 
> that is neither here nor there). One explanation is that Snape 
views 
> it in retrospect as when he started moving down the path he would 
> later regret (assuming he did regret it, I realize not everyone 
sees 
> it that way...) 
> 

Lanval:
His remorse might very well be real and heartfelt; for now we have 
but DD's word. I do think though that his path to the dark side, as 
it were, started long before the prank.


> zgirnius:

> Of course Snape must have wanted revenge, but what form he 
envisioned 
> it taking may have changed. Look at Harry - Draco is his enemy, 
but 
> Harry was horrified when he nearly killed him in HBP. Unless you 
> believe Snape at the age of 11 came to Hogwarts already willing to 
> kill or maim his enemies, and added James and Co. to that list on 
> sight, you must admit something changed at some point, and SWM 
seems 
> like a reasonable point to mark that change. You think Snape used 
> dangerous Dark magic of his own invention against James - maybe it 
> was the first time? Carol suggests this is when he decided he 
might 
> *want* to, and set about making the simple cutting hex she 
supposes 
> Snape used into something far more potent.
> 
Lanval:
Who knows what Snape's upbringing was like? Draco seems to be quite 
happy with the idea of exterminating "mudbloods" at the tender age 
of twelve. It doesn't mean he would have been prepared to act on it, 
but wishing death on one's enemies can start at a fairly young age.


> 
> > Lanval:
> > About the incentive -- I'd say that by the time we see the boys 
in 
> > SWM, Snape may have needed no more incentive to create 
potentially 
> > fatal curses for his "enemies" than the fact that they exist. 
JMO.
> 
> zgirnius:
> My difficulty with this is, when do you think Snape reached this 
> point? Voldemort may or may not have been born this way, and 
> certainly seems to have been well on his way by the time he got 
his 
> Hogwarts letter, but my impression is that he is supposed to be 
> unique in this respect, within the Potterverse. 

Lanval:
Snape's fifteen at the time I mentioned, not a newborn baby. All 
over the world, all through history, many kids that age HAVE killed, 
or at least fantasized about it. When precisely did it start? No 
idea. But by his fifth year, his rage at the way he was treated 
might have reached a level where I don't think the prank was needed 
for him to feel the *desire* to kill. 



> zgirnius:
> It seems to me that regardless of whether Snape used the full 
blown 
> curse in a refined or controlled way, whether he used it with 
lethal 
> intent and just missed, or whether he did a little cutting hex he 
> later modified, its descritption in SWM is a clue/foreshadowing 
about 
> Sectumsempra in HBP. Even if it is a little hex as Carol proposes, 
it 
> is one related to the Dark Curse Sectumsempra.
> 

Lanval:
Yes, exactly. 

> > Lanval:
> > About Snape's anger, we see him losing it in PoA as an adult 
over 
> > something much less humiliating than the scene called so 
> > aptly 'Snape's Worst Memory'. 
> 
> zgirnius:
> Two objections - first, that is in the eye of the beholder. I can 
see 
> an argument that the Prank was more humiliating, both because it 
was 
> something Snape in some ways set in motion by his own decisions, 
and 
> also because it seems James saved his life in that incident 
> (something we are told he could not stand).
> 

Lanval:
True, but to me Snape's rage in PoA is more about the 'present' -- 
about DD once again not being on his side, about the disappointment 
over not being the hero, about Black and Lupin walking free.

> zgirnius:
> Second, you are assuming this is why Snape lost it. Snape, the 
only 
> one who knows why he lost it, does not confirm he is losing it 
over 
> the Prank. "You should have died like your father, too arrogant to 
> believe he was mistaken in Black" suggests to me Snape's anger at 
> Sirius that night could be over later events as well.
> 

Lanval:
You mean over the SK thing? Maybe, but there's so much we still 
don't know. 
> 
 
> zgirnius:
> This is my opinion as well. I assume that because Harry did not 
hear 
> an incantation, the spell WAS nonverbal. Snape is a master at 
> nonverbal spells as an adult (he uses a variety of spells in his 
duel 
> with Harry, with no mention of any incantations); he had already 
> invented one by the time of this incident, so I presume that 
whether 
> the spell was a hex or Sectumsempra, he cast it nonverablly. It 
could 
> be a reason the spell was less effective, too, like Dolohiv's on 
the 
> MoM, as at this stage Snape would still have been improving his 
> nonverbal spellcasting technique.
> 
Lanval:
Agree completely. If anyone would be capable of mastering nonverbal 
spells at that age, prior to being officially taught, it would be 
Snape. And likely James and Sirius.


>  
> > > Carol, pretty sure that Sectumsempra was invented in Severus's 
> > sixth
> > > year, after the so-called Prank and in retaliation for it
> > >
> > Lanval:
> > Possible. But 'in retaliation' makes it sound as if Snape 
really, 
> > really planned to use it. *eg*
> 
> zgirnius:
> Perhaps he planned to use it next time he found himself cornered 
by 
> an XXXXX Magical Beast, in the event James's conscience proved 
less 
> sensitive, or Sirius proved more secretive? *eg*
>
 
Lanval:
My thoughts precisely! :D