Justice to Snape WAS: Re: Werewolves? There Wolves!

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 170590

> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170537
>
> colebiancardi:
> well, Snape has been "whacked". He is now an outcast and 
> untrustworthy to the wizarding community
>  <snip>
> There is no justice in the DADA curse.

Mike:
No, no, justice for me and Alla and Sherry and all the other faithful 
Snape-hating readers. When Snape got the DADA job we had such high 
hopes, for what lay ahead for "Snivellus". It may have been too much 
to hope for the Quirrell treatment, and it seemed unlikely that he 
would get the same that befell the substitute (Barty Jr). But we felt 
safe in hoping for some of that personal time off that Moody enjoyed. 
And though we wouldn't have minded something like what happened to 
Lockhart, we definitely didn't want Snape to forget his torture. 
Umbridge got off too easy for our erstwhile Potions Master, unless of 
course, we could've traded the centaurs for a pack of Mountain Trolls 
with a penchant for really bad poetry, Vorgon style. Obviously, 
getting simply sacked like Lupin was nowhere good enough for dear 
Sevie.

That's the justice I was looking for. Instead, Dumbledore got 
whacked, and Snape went for a stroll across the front lawn. The world 
just isn't fair. :(

************
In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170558

Carol:
I really don't understand why you don't think that the kids were in
actual danger from the transformed werewolf or why Snape, who knew
that Lupin hadn't taken his potion, wouldn't think it was primarily
Lupin that they needed to be saved from or why Fudge wouldn't agree
with them. Snape *could* have simply brought in Black and turned him
in to Fudge and left the kids to wake up on their own, but somehow he
thought that might not be a good idea.

Mike:
I am afraid we are not talking about the same scene. I was thinking 
about the whole 'in the castle' back and forth with Snape, Fudge, and 
Dumbledore, *after* everybody was safe in the castle. That's where 
the whole focus of Fudge and Snape is on the benefits of capturing 
Black. So Lupin transformed and may have threatened the kids, so 
what? They're safe now, unharmed except by the Dementors draining. 
Whatever happened with Lupin, both of them are happy with the 
apparent outcome now.

Despite Snape knowing that Lupin must have transformed, he can only 
guess about the situation that ensued. Any speculation on his part 
that Lupin threatened the kids had better be spot on or Harry and 
Hermione are most assuredly going to deny that was what happened and 
impugn Snape's character for making up stories about something he has 
no direct knowledge of. This territory is too dangerous for Snape to 
chance looking foolish.


Carol, who thinks that Snape, though wrong about the murderer and his
accomplice, was right that the werewolf was deadly and really did save
their lives

Mike:
I'm thinking time-turned Harry and Hermione would disagree with this 
assessment. Had they all left Snape tied up in the Shack, wandless, 
I'm betting these two could have rescued their unconscious alter 
selves and Ron and Sirius. Of course, that's not what happened, and 
it is a moot point to speculate how things would have been different. 

But that doesn't mean that once again Snape is credited for doing 
something that actually made it harder for the "right" outcome to 
happen.


************
In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170561

> wynnleaf
> <snipping a really good snarkfest. LOL. it really was wynnleaf> 
> 
> Right.  Hm...
> 
> I have to admit, even with the above scenario, I'm not sure what 
> Harry's forgiveness is worth, to himself or Snape, if Harry still 
> needs to have retribution, or some sort of punishment for Snape 
> *after* he's forgiven Snape.

Mike:
Without Dumbledore there, I don't see anybody getting Harry to shake 
Snape's hand the way he made Snape and Black. No matter how Harry 
gets his inevitable revelation of DDM!Snape, the best outcome Snape 
should hope for would be Harry turning his back and walking away, 
imo. There is no hope for anything beyond a deeply disgusted but ever 
so slight respect for Snape from Harry's perspective.


> wynnleaf
> Okay.  Now, let's suppose that Dumbledore was right all along and 
> JKR reveals Snape to be *actually* very remorseful for the Potter's 
> deaths.  Let's say he really did risk his life spying all those 
> years.  

Mike:
As I've posted before, no amount of remorse will bring back Harry's 
parents. And Harry shouldn't and won't, imo, ever get past this basic 
truth. No matter what Snape does to redeem himself. 

You can't cut the brake lines on a vehicle then complain that the 
wrong people got in the car and drove away to their deaths. It's too 
late for Snape to say he did all in his power to protect the Potters 
after he told the prophesy to Voldemort. At least to his credit, 
Snape has never blamed Sirius for him (Snape) not getting to redeem 
his mistake. Oh, wait, my bad, he did blame him. "You'd have died 
like your father, too arrogant..." Speaking of arrogance, how 
arrogant to blame the SK for giving up a secret that wouldn't have 
been necessary in the first place if it wasn't for him.


> wynnleaf
> Let's say he realized the value of Dumbledore's trust and 
> actually felt exactly like Harry when he AK'd Dumbledore -- hating 
> himself and repulsed by his own actions. 

Mike:
I can't help but reminded of something that Sirhan Sirhan said at one 
of his parole hearings, to try and get paroled. He told the board 
that Bobby Kennedy would have wanted him to be paroled. To which 
someone remarked - such a shame. The one guy that would have voted 
*for* his parole, AND HE KILLED HIM.

> wynnleaf
> Do we still need punishment for Snape now?

Mike:
Heh, I already gave my answer to this query. ;)


************
In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170572

Carol:
... or [Snape's] been fooling Dumbledore for fifteen years. (Snape 
says "sixteen," but either that's a slip for the time he began spying 
for DD, or JKR's difficulties with math are manifesting themselves 
again.)

Mike:
Actually Carol, I don't think JKR's maths missed here. Snape is 
speaking from the perspective of Summer '95 - Voldemort's rebirth. He 
said he had sixteen years of info on DD when LV returned. That puts 
his starting point around the summer of '79. If the prophesy happened 
on Halloween '79, as you and I think, that only puts Snape "spying" 
on Dumbledore for a few months before the prophesy. Surely his 
eavesdropping wasn't his first day on the job. And even if it was, 16 
is the best number of years anyway.

>From a different post, someone said Snape had all those years of 
spying for Dumbledore "at great personal risk". The earliest I 
can conceive of Snape knowing the Potters would become LV's target 
would be the late Winter or early Spring of '80. Since he joined the 
Hogwarts staff in August of '81, "years" is a might bit generous, 
imo. For my part, I'm not yet convinced that Snape "returned" after 
the prophesy. In fact, I'm not convinced at all that the prophesy was 
Snape's primary motivation siding with Dumbledore to affect 
Voldemort's demise. But I'll leave that there for now.

Mike