Justice to Snape WAS: Re: Werewolves? There Wolves!

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 170620

Alla:
> > If I hear from Snape that he is sorry for what he helped doing to 
> > Harry's parents and Harry and that he regrets it, I may think it 
> > counts, but I want to hear it from Snape's mouth.
> 
> Pippin:
> I don't know why you would believe Snape if you didn't believe 
> Dumbledore. Surely Dumbledore is the more reliable of the two?
> If Dumbledore said that Snape felt remorseful, I would believe
> Dumbledore, even if Snape denied it and laughed. 
> <BIG SNIP>


Alla:

Eh, because it is more convincing for me to hear it from the 
character himself than from the third party. But of course there are 
additional circumstances as well. I wrote several times in the past 
that to me Snape's behavior does not ring true as behavior of person 
who feels remorse and I have not read an argument that convinced me 
yet. Therefore why would I believe Dumbledore if Snape's behavior 
does not show me that he is remorseful? Accordingly if Snape denies 
it and laughs, sure I believe him, since his behavior to me is the 
behavior of hateful bastard, who continues to try to impose as much 
misery in Harry's life as he can.

I brought up several times the "Coldfire trilogy" and the antihero 
Gerald Tarant. Snape has to work so hard to be in Tarant's league of 
badness and he will never reach it.

But I **buy** Tarant's change of heart by the end of the trilogy. I 
SO do. I mean, change of heart enough to make me think that he 
achieved redemption, not change of heart and him becoming a fluffy 
bunny.

Of course his behavior shows me that he changed first and foremost, 
but his reluctant admission that the main good guy changed him as 
well works **wonders** for me to believe him, to sympathize with him, 
etc.

So, if in the last confrontation between Harry and Snape I will 
**hear** that he is sorry, maybe it will work some wonders as well 
for me, we shall see.

> > Alla:
> >
> > Sure, it is a possibility. There is also another possibility - 
Snape
> > is not saying anything to Harry, because he is **not** sorry about
> > his parents death at all IMO.
> 
> Lupinlore:
> Or maybe not JUST sorry, if he's sorry at all.  Maybe he feels 
hatred
> for James, and thus by extension hatred for Harry.  Maybe he feels
> love for Lily.  Maybe he feels anger at the life debt.  Maybe he
> feels anger at the debt he owes to DD.  Maybe he hates Voldy for
> messing up in Godric's Hollow and getting him into this bind to 
start
> with.  Maybe he feels all of the above.


Alla:

Yes, maybe so. In fact I think his hatred for James is spread to 
Harry and " you and your filfy father" sort of cemented that for me

Lupinlore:
None of which excuses his actions or reprehensible abusive behavior
in any way, form, or fashion, I'd say. And not of which excuses him
from punishment.

Alla:

Blinks. I am with you on this topic, remember? You do not have to 
convince me that Snape is a child abuser, I see him as such indeed.


> Alla:
> >  Why is it when it comes to Snape do we think that DD is suddenly
> > unreliable.
> 
> Lupinlore:
> Because he's already shown himself to be contemptibly incompetent in
> allowing Snape to abuse Harry and Neville, I suppose.  Because he
> failed to intervene firmly to put a stop to the Dursleys' abuse of
> Harry?  I'd say he's shown himself to be extremely incompetent and
> unreliable in anything concerning Harry (and Snape is inextricably
> bound up with Harry).

Alla:

That's great. Except I did not say it, so you are convincing somebody 
else. I think Toonmili, not 100% sure. I agree with you.


> Lupinlore:
> Hmmm.  I don't know about the whole DDM! thing.  I think it is as
> likely an outcome as any other.  It would be clumsy and, I think,
> incredibly cheesy, but all possibilities have severe problems.
> However JKR gets herself out of the corner she's backed into, it 
will
> involve a great deal of hand-waving and contrived plotting to
> severely strain believability.
>

Alla:

See on this we are in disagreement indeed. I think **any** 
possibility, **any** sort of Snape, any outcome can be done really 
really well. I do not believe JKR backed herself in any corner 
necessarily, I think book 7 can be really wonderful.

I mean, I am being absolutely honest that when push comes to shove to 
me it will all depend on how it is done.

Is it possible JKR can do DD!M Snape well? Absolutely, why not. If it 
happens, I will stare at the page for few minutes, then laugh at 
myself for few days and that would be it, if it is written well and 
emotionally satisfactory for me.

Granted, right now I have no clue how DD!M Snape would be able to 
satisfy me, but I do have faith in JKR, we shall see.

Of course, I would prefer to see Snape punished, suffering, etc, but 
if something different is done well, is fine by me.

The outcome of Harry's death will upset me, yes. I think it is 
absolutely normal though – we all invested our energy, our emotions 
in those books, so surely we all have hopes for good ending or tragic 
ending as we see it. So, that would cause me to be disappointed 
regardless of whether it is well written or not.

I would still not use woodchipper, LOLOLOL. But the books will not be 
among the books which I will be reading and rereading. As I said, I 
want some hope at the end. I followed Harry's journey for several 
years now, I want to see that he can survive and beat the ends, I 
want the end of the journey to be worth it for me.

I think Hichkengruendler said it well once – that how can you not 
have faith in JKR resolving the plots at the end, if she managed to 
satisfactory resolve the Molly/ Fleur tension in what one or two 
sentences? At least for me that resolution was very emotionally 
satisfying. 


> Mike:
> No, no, justice for me and Alla and Sherry and all the other 
faithful 
> Snape-hating readers. When Snape got the DADA job we had such high 
> hopes, for what lay ahead for "Snivellus". It may have been too 
much 
> to hope for the Quirrell treatment, and it seemed unlikely that he 
> would get the same that befell the substitute (Barty Jr). But we 
felt 
> safe in hoping for some of that personal time off that Moody 
enjoyed. 
<SNIP>

Alla:

Yep - that one.


JMO,

Alla.