Snape's the Rescuer - Really?/Justice to Snape

[lanval1015]

No: HPFGUIDX 170788

> lizzyben:
> 
> Well, there's two levels here - the practical level & the symbolic 
> level. This is a literary text, so the imagery & symbolism have 
> meaning. And JKR clearly contrasts the images of how Sirius 
treated 
> an unconcious Snape (as a grosteque puppet, head lolling) and the 
> image of how Snape treated unconscious people (as patients & human 
> beings,in stretchers, in comfort.) This is the ONLY glimpse we 
have 
> of the real Snape, and it's quite telling. JKR didn't have to show 
> us this - but she did. It doesn't really matter where the 
stretchers 
> came from; what matters is how Snape treats vulnerable, injured 
> people. And in this instance, the only time we see the unvarnished 
> Snape, he treats the unconsious people with dignity & care. 
> 
> 
Lanval:
As I said to Magpie before in a different discussion, on a 
literary/symbolic level I can absolutely accept that. ANd since I'm 
not JKR, I have no way of knowing why she wrote what the wrote until 
she tells us.
  
But I strongly object to the notion that we see the "real Snape" 
here. It's just Snape, doing what he needs to do. No healing desire 
required. 

You may say that she could have shown us Snape kicking Sirius, or 
dropping Harry, or something along that line. Yet, if she wanted to 
show us Caring Snape, she could have made it more obvious as well. 
Have him cover Ron with a blanket, for example. As it is written 
(and remember that she still considers children her target 
audience), Snape's behavior is just too subtle and seems to me 
mostly neutral. Yet knowing what took place just before, and what 
followed must be taken into context, I think.


> lizzyben:
> 
> They're both about control. Imperius takes away someone's mental 
> control, to make them into a mental puppet of the wizard. 
> Mobilcorpus takes away physical control, to make someone's body 
into 
> a puppet. It's clear that JKR thinks that controlling people, 
> depriving them of choices & free will, is a major evil. That evil 
is 
> symbolized by the "unforgiveable" Imperius curse & in these other 
> curses. It's not a coincidence that Sirius, Remus & James and the 
> Death Eaters do the same exact thing to their enemies - they all 
> levitate them, control them & humiliate them. There's a direct, 
> intentional parallel between these various spells. 
> 

Lanval:
You know what? I agree with you that JKR likely means to point out 
the danger of controlling people, that she dislikes it greatly, and 
that it *can* start in small, harmless ways.  

But I'd say we are still meant to understand the huge gap between an 
Unforgivable like Imperius, and Levicorpus. Besides, Snape is 
transported along by a different spell altogether; he's not hanging 
upside down. 
So, what would have been a good alternative of bringing Snape along? 
I've already pointed out that the tunnel was narrow, and low. 

Oh, and remember Snape saying "I'll drag the werewolf"? 


> lizzyben:
> And yes, Snape came up w/the Levicorpus spell, but then it was 
used 
> against him - so Snape became the victim as he was controlled, 
> exposed & humiliated. And I think he learned from that. We NEVER 
see 
> adult Snape using those kinds of spells, against anyone. 

Lanval:
The poor lamb, things just don't work out for him. :) Imagine, not 
being able to hex others in peace, but to have them steal the hex 
and use it against you...

Btw, we never see Sirius or Lupin using Levicorpus as adults either. 
Levicorpus is a childish prank. The spell Sirius uses is a great way 
to transport an unconscious person. The only blame I can point at 
him is not watching Snape's head.

Again... "dragging the werewolf". Doesn't sound as if Snapey was 
worried about giving Lupin a few extra bruises either.


> lizzyben:
That's a 
> significant detail, IMO. Even at his most enraged, Snape didn't 
use 
> magic during his emotional meltdowns in POA or OOTP. And he hardly 
> ever uses magical spells during his classes. He seems to excercise 
a 
> lot of restraint in his use of magic. 
> 

Lanval:
Snape's emotional meltdown in PoA takes place with DD in the room. 
Good choice, Severus, not to throw about angry hexes in 
front of the Headmaster. :)

Which time in OotP?
When he throws Harry out of his office? Hm, sometimes Muggle 
brutality can be enormously gratifying, I'm sure.

I don't recall other teachers throwing tantrums and spells around in 
class either. Nothing special, IMO, that sort of restraint. More 
like common decent behavior expected of a teacher.



> > 

> lizzyben:
> Does he bind & gag Sirius? Personally, I don't think he did.Sure, 
> he tells Fudge he did, because he knows that he should have. But 
> when Harry & Hermione observe him, all they see is Snape lifting 
> their bodies onto stretchers, and taking them to the castle. 
There's 
> no mention at all of Snape binding Sirius. 

Lanval:
I've already explained that in another post, so I'll just repeat 
here that it was night, and H & H were far away.

If Snape tells Fudge that he did it, what reason do we have to 
doubt him? If we can't trust his word here, when can we? 


> lizzyben:
And who is the first 
> person he moves into a stretcher? Not Sirius, but Ron, the boy 
with 
> a broken leg. I think, in that moment, Snape went into paramedic 
> mode. He evaluated the situation & took care of the most injured 
> person first, then worked to save the others. He didn't see 
Sirius, 
> a man he loathes, but an unconscious, injured person who needed 
> help. In situations like this, it seems like Snape's healing 
> instinct/training snaps into place. The pettiness & hostility take 
> over later. :) 

Lanval:
They sure do. :) 

Again, he had Ron on the stretcher because Ron was the first victim 
he came across; that had nothing to do with Ron being injured.  

How do you *know* he didn't see Black as exactly who he is? Do you 
believe Snape forgets for one second?

Sirius, who needed *help*? With what?

And please, WHAT was he saving Sirius from again? 

Where was Snape's Saving People Thing when Sirius was BEGGING him to 
hear him out? 



> lizzyben:
> Basically, Snape has a "saving people thing". There's other 
examples 
> of this throughout the novel. In GOF, when Snape hears someone 
> scream, he leaps out of bed in only his nightshirt to see what 
> happened. In OOTP, Snape & Harry are having a petty fight when 
they 
> hear a woman scream. Snape stops, drops everything & instantly 
> rushes out to help. So does Harry. It seems like they both do 
> have this need to rush in & try to save people in danger.
> 

Lanval:

In GoF, Chapter 25, Snape comes to "investigate" because he 
heard "banging and wailing". When he confronts Filch, his *only* 
interest is who broke into his offcie and stole something from the 
cupboard.

Not once does Snape ask if anyone is hurt. We have no proof that 
he "leapt" from his bed, we have no way of knowing if he just didn't 
feel like putting on a robe. Nor do we know if he was worried. 

My guess? He heard a ruckus, he got angry because students were out 
of bed, and went in search of someone to punish. Filch got there 
first, btw.

Unless you had a different chapter in mind? 

In Ootp, Snape and Harry hear a woman scream. Snape's head jerks up 
(they're in the dungeons), and he mutters "What the...?" He then 
asks Harry, frowning, if he'd noticed anything unusual on his way 
down.

Harry shakes his head. They listen and hear the woman scream again. 
Snapes strides out of his office, Harry follows. Running is not 
mentioned.

If that's Snape's version of Stop, Drop and Rush to Action, I'd say 
he needs to work on it a bit.

They find Professor Trelawney in hysterics in the entrance hall, 
which is "packed" with students and teachers, all presumably 
endowed with a Saving People Thing.




> lizzyben:
> 
> But you're not really addressing my larger point, which is that 
> Snape does not seem to distinguish in who he saves/heals. He saves 
> Harry in the first novel during the Quidditch match. And yes, he 
did 
> save Harry from the Crucio curse. He also saves Draco from a 
curse. 
> He helps protect a child he seems to like (Draco), and a student 
he 
> can't stand (Harry). 

Lanval:
But last I checked , Snape may well have *attempted* to save Harry 
in SS/PS in order to be rid of the pesky life debt. At least DD says 
so.

He saves Draco because he MUST, or Draco will die. There's no 
choice. And if you're trying to tell me that Snape is impartial, and 
believes all people must be treated equally... oh my. :)


> lizzyben:
> 
> And I do think that Snape's countercurse shows a knack for 
healing. 
> In that chapter, he not only issued the countercurse, but also 
> thinks of a remedy for the scars, wipes Draco's forehead, and 
> reassures Draco that he won't have permenant injuries. He seems to 
> have a good "bedside manner" as a healer (as opposed to his 
manners 
> in general). Snape has that duality - healer/curser, light/dark, 
and 
> it's his experience on the "dark side" that gives him the 
knowledge 
> necessary for the light. His knowledge of the dark arts allows him 
> to excel in DADA, his knowledge of poisons allows him to create 
> antidotes, etc. I don't see any contradiction there. Snape's 
> knowledge of curses helps him to be an effective healer.

Lanval:
We see *one* instance of Snape showing some signs of caring and 
concern for a "patient", and that's Draco, whom he knows and likes. 

That's not having a good bedside manner just yet. IMO.

His knowledge, his LOVE of the Dark Arts seems to have come first, 
that's what worries me. Then again, he was young at the time and may 
have changed. Harry doesn't think so.

And being a Healer would perhaps involve having to fix all the 
boring stuff too, you know... walnuts jammed into nostrils and such. 
Not just the cool DADA stuff. Sometimes teeth must be shrunk back, 
because a potion has exploded. Where was Snape's desire to heal when 
Hermione and Goyle were suffering? 



> lizzyben:
> 
> Oh, I think he does. That's what makes the ending of POA so 
pathetic 
> & hurtful for Snape. He desperately wants DD's approval & respect, 
> and he resents that Harry, Sirius & co. seem to have DD's love w/o 
> having earned it. At the end, Snape begs, pleads, DD to finally 
> choose him over the golden Gryffindors. Of course, DD does not. He 
> again chooses to protect Sirius over Snape. This, IMO, is what 
> finally drives Snape over the edge into a total tantrum. If he 
> didn't care what DD thought of him, it wouldn't have hurt him so 
> much. It's a dysfunctional kind of relationship, but I do think 
> Snape cares about DD, and wants his approval. 

Lanval:
That's a good theory, but not necessarily true. Though I'm inclined 
to agree with you. I wonder what this betrayal by DD (which is how 
Snape must see it) did to him. 



> lizzyben:
> No, they don't, and that's my point. Healers try to save people, 
not 
> because they love or hate them, but because they value human life. 
> In Snape's treatment of his various "patients", we can see that 
same 
> attitude. It would not surprise me at all to learn that Snape 
> actually trained at some point to become a Healer. And Snape's 
> stance stands in stark contrast to most of the other main 
> characters. People have talked about the fact that the Trio seem 
to 
> think that it's OK to hurt people, hex people, or even torture 
> people that they do not like. How they seem to think outsiders or 
> enemies aren't "real people" at all. Snape, in contrast, treats 
> everyone like "real people," real human beings. He'll taunt & 
insult 
> people he dislikes, but he will not abandon them, hurt them, or 
use 
> them. He doesn't treat people like puppets.


Lanval:
Ok, you're talking only about the main characters. But since I don't 
see Snape healing or saving that many people, I still don't think 
there's a good point to be made for him to be morally superior. 

He certainly hurts them, btw. 

Taunting counts, right? Like when you're called names like 
Snivellus, or dangled upside down, or made fun of...

As to using people, we know far too little of Snape's life to state 
with certainty that he "doesn't use or abandon people". Er, Wormtail?

When do we see the Trio torture anyone?

Snape on the other hand *has* hurt and hexed too, and since you 
compared him with the Trio, the exploits of his youth must count. He 
may just have tortured, too. *cough*DE membership*cough* 


> lizzyben:
> 
>  No, I mean when he saved Dumbledore from dying of his Horcrux 
> injury, healed Katie Bell from the locket curse, healed Ron after 
> the mead poisoning, healed Draco from Harry's curse, etc. The 
whole 
> book, Snape is running around healing people. At the end of the 
> novel, Harry actually *misses* Snape for a moment, when Madame 
> Pomfrey says that she doesn't know how to heal Bill's injury. 
Harry 
> remembers how well Snape cured Draco's injuries, and IMO finally 
> realizes Snape's skills as a healer. All through the books, the 
kids 
> are healed from the worst injuries & curses w/o ill effect. 
> Suddenly, when Snape is gone, nothing can be done to heal Bill 
> Weasely. 

Lanval:
All the injuries you quoted are countercourses or antidotes to Dark 
Magic. So to me that still doesn't make Snape a Healer. It makes 
him a damn fine DADA specialist.

If DADA were synonymous with Healing, why is none of the other five  
DADA teachers Harry has known a Healer? (Well, hello -- maybe that's 
how Lupin earned his money, working as a Healer! *eg*). I'll take 
Umbridge out of the equation here, of course, 'cause she's a 
Ministry bureaucrat, not even a qualified teacher. Moody? Not a 
Healer. He could use one, though. Quirrell? Uh, no. Lockheart? :D

> lizzyben:
IMO, this is a sign that Snape often has worked behind the 
> scenes to heal the students in the past. In OOTP, Hermione was 
> gravely injured by an unknown dark curse, and almost dies. To 
> recover, she needs to take ten. potions. A DAY. Who brewed all 
those 
> potions? 

Lanval:
Well, who brews ALL the potions Madam Pomfrey needs? Until we know 
Snape does, and I don't quite see how that would fit into his 
schedule, especially in that last year where he was DADA teacher... 
we can just as well assume that she either brews them herself, or 
gets them from other sources. But your theory works too, of course.

> lizzyben:
Who diagnosed the unknown curse, and the appropriate 
> remedy? Snape. 


Lanval:
Uh, help me out here, but where does it say that Snape diagnosed 
Hermione and prescribed the remedy? 

All I can find is DD mentioning that Madam Pomfrey is patching 
everyone up, and that all but Tonks can be treated by her.
Later in the Hospital Wing we see Hermione reading the paper to 
Harry, and her painful ribs are mentioned.

> lizzyben:
When Hermione & other students are petrified, they 
> are cured by Snape's Mandrake potion. And etc. Snape has always 
been 
> healing people behind the scenes; in HBP we finally actually 
> observed him doing that.
> 

Lanval:
As I said, at this point Snape "always healing people behind the 
scenes" is largely conjecture. 

I can't find anything about Snape brewing up the Mandrakes either.


> lizzyben:
> Yes, Snape is a snarky sarcastic bastard, but he also seems 
devoted 
> to protecting & healing people in need. In this, Snape reminds me 
a 
> bit of "House, MD," or Dr. Cox from Scrubs. Dr. Cox can unleash a 
> stream of insults that would make Snape proud, but he also 
genuinely 
> cares about the welfare of his interns & patients. Snape seems to 
me 
> to have a similar personality. Not a nice person, but a good 
person. 
> Throughout the novels, Snape acts like a jerk, but he also acts to 
> save & heal people. I feel like I finally "got" Snape once 
> I saw the healer aspect to his character. It's sort of been hiding 
> in plain sight, all along. 
> 
Lanval:
Yes, the House comparison has been made before. I'm not particularly 
fond of him either, especially in recent shows, which is maybe the 
show's fault (they do seem to be running out of ideas, and House has 
to get meaner, more outragous, all the time...), I just adore Hugh 
Laurie (and have done so since 1999).

But House, unlike Snape, HAS his moments where you see the human 
side of him. His face will show concern, worry, doubt, delight (duh, 
well, Laurie is a great actor, so that may be unfair to Snape *g*)

With Snape it's almost *all* conjecture -- his emotions, his 
thoughts, his fears, his loyalty.  We see what we want to see.