A Night at the Prophesy and the Niggling Details

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 171019

> In http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/170932
>
> Neri:
> The answer seems quite obvious to me: In OotP JKR had to write
> Dumbledore's explanation that the eavesdropper heard only the first
> part without giving the readers too many details or diverting them
> from the main issue (which in OotP was the fact that Voldemort knew
> half the prophecy, not *how* he knew it). 

Mike:
Right, this is the same situation that you wrote of concerning 
Snape's usage of the Sectumsempra curse in the course of SWM. JKR 
does not want us concentrating on the "why" only the first half was 
heard and she has Dumbledore move on quickly. As you say, at this 
point we don't care about the "why", we are too busy digesting 
the "what". We don't have a reason to ask "who" or "why", yet.

"My - our - one stroke of good fortune was that the eavesdropper was 
detected only a short way into the prophesy and thrown from the 
building."
"So he only heard...?"
"He heard only the first part, the part fortelling ..."
(OotP p. 843, US)

We, and Harry, are concentrating on what part of the prophesy was 
heard. Dumbledore has good reason for passing over the identity of 
the eavesdropper, we know that now. 

And we have no problem picturing Abe as the type of bartender to 
physically eject someone from his bar. After all, we learned earlier 
in the same book that Dung was ejected and banned for life from the 
same bar. 

But now, in the course of HBP, we learn that Abe wasn't the only one 
to see the eavesdropper. So I naturally ask, where is the indication 
of Albus having the type of temperament that would allow him to be a 
party to ejecting someone from a bar? Because those are the words JKR 
had Albus use; "thrown from the building".


< reorganizing your post here, sorry 'bout that chief ;) >

> Neri:
> I think the question we should ask ourselves is: assuming for a 
> moment that Snape indeed heard only the first half of the prophecy, 
> and there was never supposed to be any doubt about it, why didn't 
> JKR write the two versions, Dumbledore's and Trelawney's, perfectly 
> consistent?

Mike:
To see how easy it would have been to make the two stories 
consistent, simply substitute "prevented from hearing any more" in 
place of "thrown from the building". Less dramatic than "thrown", 
sure, but would it really have detracted from the scene? I think not. 
Besides, didn't JKR's version have you picturing the eavesdropper 
being hauled away before Dumbledore even opened the door? I certainly 
felt justified in having this opinion. 

So why did JKR choose to lead us to this false conclusion? (Assuming 
you came to the same conclusion about the ejection that I did) Was 
JKR simply negligent in maintaining the consistency of the versions, 
or was she deliberately setting up the inconsistency? Also, ask 
yourself, would JKR have been lackidaisical in her writing of the 
prophesy reveal chapter? Doesn't the whole plot of the series hinge 
on the prophesy? 

Now, I'm not convinced Snape was even ejected - if he was still a 
loyal DE at this time - or was ejected for show - if he was working 
for Albus at this time.


> Neri:
> IMO it's a consistency that can easily be resolved in DH (by 
> Aberforth, probably, or by Snape himself) but like SSSusan 
> upthread I won't be surprised if JKR isn't even aware of any 
> niggling doubts regarding the issue, and we won't get any 
> further explanation in DH.

Mike:
Why do I insist on this inconsistency? It goes to my belief of when 
Snape "returned" to the good side.

At this point in time, Harry believes Dumbledore was an old fool for 
believing in Snape. But Harry can live with that failing, even if 
Dumbledore didn't. ;) For Dumbledore to be consistent in his belief 
of second chances does not hurt all that much. It speaks of a higher 
calling for Harry's mentor and the epitome of goodness.

Ever since Dumbledore's famous pronouncement in PS/SS that he won't 
lie, I have been waiting for the other shoe to drop. Where would 
Dumbledore lie to Harry? Because when Harry finds out that Dumbledore 
lied to him, the set will be complete. Every one of Harry's 
adult "good guys" will be shown to have a major flaw, and not an 
endearing flaw either. (Lily excluded of course. Saint Lily is still 
an unexplored phenomenom, and may or may not change in DH)

What better place for Dumbledore to have lied than in the defence of 
Snape? All of these other "good guys" flaws have been exposed by some 
kind of interaction with Snape. And if Dumbledore "allowed" the 
release of the prophesy, by Snape, in pursuit of the lofty goal of 
Voldemort's permanent downfall, in the grand scheme of things, will 
that be so bad. 

"What did I care if numbers of nameless and faceless people and 
creatures were slaughtered in the vague future,..." as long as "one 
day, amongst their [tyrants] victims, there is sure to be one who 
rises against them and strikes back! Voldemort is no different! 
Always he was on the lookoutfor the one who would challenge him. He 
heard the prophesy and he leapt into action, with the result that he 
not only handpicked the man most likely to finish him, he handed him 
uniquely deadly weapons!"  (OotP & HBP quotes combined)

I don't believe Dumbledore had just then (in HBP) came to that 
conclusion about tyrants. By the looks of things, Dumbledore had for 
many years before the prophesy night been on the lookout for clues on 
defeating Voldemort. The Horcrux angle being only one of the things 
he was looking for information on. But this conviction about tyrants 
and their weaknesses seems to be a guiding principle rather than just 
an easy explanation to Harry.

And Dumbledore seems to have had a pretty good idea how Voldemort 
would react to hearing a prophesy that foretold of his downfall. 
Again, this doesn't seem like Dumbledore just then came to this 
revelation. Rather, Dumbledore lumps Voldemort in with "All of them 
[tyrants]", he is sure that Voldemort would react the same way. This 
is a truism that guides Dumbledore's beliefs. And Dumbledore seemed 
bent on exploiting this tyranical weakness.

Sure, Dumbledore had his own weaknesses that got in the way of his 
plan. He admitted to coming to care about Harry, something that 
wasn't in the plan. "I cared about you too much. ... I cared more for 
your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of 
mind than my plan,..." (OotP) But that entire, chapter long, 
exposition at the end of OotP reads more like Dumbledore realizing 
his mistakes and getting back to the business at hand than as an 
explanation for and comforting of a distraught Harry. 

And the business at hand is the training and preparation of Harry to 
be Voldemort's Achille's Heel. By the time we reach HBP, there is no 
longer a twinkle in Dumbledore's eye. Has anybody else noticed that? 
Dumbledore may still be touched by Harry's kindness (Dumbledore's 
Man, through and through), but he quickly gets back to business.

So Dumbledore lied to Harry, when he told him how the prophesy got 
released. Dumbledore knew not only how Voldemort would react, he knew 
that would cause the prophesy to become true. He, like Snape, didn't 
know who the unfortunate family would be, but he knew he would get 
the "chosen one" out of the deal. And this chosen one would have "the 
power to vanquish the Dark Lord", exactly what Dumbledore needed.

JMHO
Mike