/On the trivial and the Profound/Lying & Cheating

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165576

Magpie:
> > It feels like there's a lot of having it both ways as well. 
Potions
> > is totally unimportant so it doesn't matter if Harry takes the 
easy
> > way, yet he's also not taking the easy way at all because 
learning
> > stuff--which is the point of the class--is so important to him.
> 
> 
> Valky:
> That actually does sound close to what I am saying, except that it 
is
> the percieved greatness that Harry is achieving which is not
> important, not 'Potions' and I don't see it as having it both ways
> because there is one way Harry can never actually have it at all
> unless of course he abdicates his prophesied destiny and dang the 
rest
> to hell. It is that way which is not of significant importance,
> because Harry has made his choice - to walk into the arena with 
head
> held high.

Magpie:
Harry's perceived greatness might not be important in the general 
scheme of things, I agree, but that doesn't take away from the 
importance it does have. Harry himself has certainly noted this sort 
of thing as being wrong when he's not the one benefitting from it. 
Maybe he gets over it, as he should, and doesn't become obsessed 
with it, but it's not like he's above noting unfairness himself. 
There are a lot of things people do in these books that have limited 
importance in the general sense but are very important for their 
character.

Valky: 
> As for not seeing this Harry I say is concerned primarily with 
dangers and
> death and defeating LV in the HBP text.. How many examples do you 
want
> then?

> 
> Here are a few more beyond the, at least, two or three which I have
> already given -

Magpie:
I don't think the examples you've already given have been convincing 
at all of what you seem to be claiming. Of course there are places 
in the text where Harry is concerned with these things. When he is, 
he says so. But one of the characteristics of HBP is the way Harry 
is juggling a number of different concerns and flips from one to the 
other. When you step back and look at the whole thing, imo, you do 
not get a Harry who's based around thinking he's going to die and 
that he must prepare for the fight against Voldemort as much as 
possible. He's more like the Harry in previous books, like the one 
who worries greatly about the TWT and then puts off breaking the 
riddle of the egg. 


-- Christmas Eve Ch 16 ---
> 
> Feeling disappointed Harry threw the boook back into his trunk, 
turned
> off the lamp and rolled over, thinking of werewolves and Snape, 
Stan
> Shunpike and the Half-Blood Prince, and finally falling into an 
uneasy
> sleep full of creeping shadows and the cries of bitten children...

Magpie:
"Harry lay awake for a long time . . . trying to convince himself 
that his feelings for Ginny were entirely elder-brotherly" 

Harry often falls asleep thinking of whatever he's just been focused 
on.

> --- Ch 18 --------------
> 
> Harry Brooded or the next few days over what to do next about
> Slughorn. He decided that, for the time being, he would let 
Slughorn
> think that he had forgotten all about Horcruxes; it was best to 
lull
> him into a false sense of security before returning to the attack.
 
> ......
> 
> Harry awaited an invitation to one of his little evening parties,
> determined to accept this time, even if he ahad to reschedule
> Quidditch practice.

Magpie:
Harry has just been given a task of getting the memory from 
Slughorn. He asks Slughorn for the memory and he gets upset. Harry 
figures he'll lay off it for a while and vaguely plans to "attack" 
him at some point in the future. Time goes by. Harry's considering 
going to one of Slughorn's parties, "even if he had to reschedule 
Quidditch practice." As if Quidditch practice has importance too. 
Harry is thinking about getting the memory, but he doesn't sound 
that harried about it to me. He's deciding to do nothing for a while.

As to the bezoar scene itself, I would also point out that the way 
the scene is written, Harry connects the bezoar to "softening 
Slughorn up" only afterwards, in response to Ron's complaints about 
not sharing the tip--just as, iirc, he pulls out "Maybe there's 
something in there that will help me with Voldemort" in response to 
Hermione's scoldings. The entire scene leading up to the use of the 
bezoar is focused not on Harry worrying about not getting the memory 
but "annoyed" and "irritated" at Hermione's smugness at watching him 
struggle without the Prince. In fact, when Harry finds the bezoar 
note, it's not out of desperation, but irritation: "[Hermione] was 
now decanting and mysterious separated ingredients....More to avoid 
watching this irritating sight than anyting else, Harry ent over the 
Half-Blood Prince's bok and turned a few pages with unneccesary 
force. And there it was, scrawled right across a long list of 
antidotes." 

It's understandable, imo, that many of us see Harry as being a 
normal student in Potions. I honestly think he's written that way. 
It's just that rather than being driven by an ambition to be the 
best in class, Harry is driven to avoid the embarassment and 
annoyance of being found out.

 .......
> 
> "I didn't feel anything," said harry, ignoring this 
interruption. "But
> I don't care about that now.. "
> "what do you mean, you don't care... don't you want to learn to
> apparate?" said Ron incredulously.
> .... "Hurry up will you there's something** I want to do."
> 
> **Tail Malfoy

Magpie:
Apparition isn't something Harry's desperate to learn--which I think 
goes a bit against the idea that Harry's desperately trying to learn 
skills to use against Voldemort. I'd think Apparition would be very 
important there, but Harry is "not fussed" about it taking a while 
to learn because he "prefers flying." Sounds pretty normal. Right 
now he's focused on tailing Malfoy. His own obsession. He wants to 
catch him out. Malfoy is certainly connected to Voldemort in his own 
way, but he's not directly connected to Harry's upcoming doom in 
Harry's mind.

> --------------------------
> 
> --- Ch 19 -------
> 
> It took Harry a few moments to realise what McClaggen was talking 
about.
> "Oh.... right... Quidditch" he said putting his wand back in his 
belt
> and running his hand wearily through his hair.

Magpie:
Harry is thinking about one of his concerns, and it takes him a 
moment to flip back to a different concern. I'm not seeing how this 
proves that all year he's mostly focused on his impending death and 
preparing to fight Voldemort. In another scene:"Harry lay awake for 
a long time in the darkness. He did not want to lose the upcoming 
match; not only was it his first as Captain, but he was determined 
to beat Draco Malfoy at Quidditch even if he could not prove his 
suspicions about him"  He's not thinking about Quidditch in this 
scene, but he is in the earlier scene.

 ......
> 
> Harry however had never been less intersted in Quidditch; he was
> rapidly becoming obsessed with Draco Malfoy.

Magpie:
Harry's pet obsession with finding out what Draco is doing sometimes 
distracts him from both Quidditch and Dumbledore's lessons about how 
to fight Voldemort. In the following chapter:

"Dumbledore heaved a deep sigh, then said, 'But never mind my staff 
problems. We have much more important matters to discuss. Firstly--
have you managed the task I set you at the end of our previous 
lesson?'

'Ah,' said Harry, brought up short. What with Apparition lessons and 
Quidditch and Ron being poisoned and getting his skull cracked and 
his determination to find out what Draco Malfoy was up to, Harry had 
almost forgotten about the memory Dumbledore had asked him to 
extract from Professor Slughorn." 

I don't see how that could be clearer. Harry has just listed 
Apparition lessons and Quidditch along with his private interest in 
Draco along with Ron's poisoning for reasons to "almost forget" 
about the task that's supposed to be so important to him in your 
earlier quotes. He's brought up short when Dumbledore asks about it. 
And Dumbledore responds that although he would have expected Harry 
to forget about it while Ron was in danger he would have *hoped* 
that when that was not the case Harry would set his mind to it. 
(Dumbledore doesn't hear Harry's listing Apparition and Quidditch 
and Draco in there along with Ron as a distraction.) Dumbledore 
*reminds* him how important to the Voldemort issue he said it was 
and Harry feels shamed because he hasn't been giving it the 
importance Dumbledore expects him too. 

> ---------------------------
> 
> 
> ---- Ch 21 ----
> 
> Harry racked his brains over the next week as to how he was to
> persuade Slughorn to hand over the true memory, but nothing in the
> nature of a brainwave occurred and he was reduced to doing what he 
did
> increasingly these days when at a loss: poring over his poyions 
book,
> hoping tha the Prince would have scribbled something useful in a
> margin, as he had done so many times before.

Magpie:
So now that Harry has been shamed to get back to the task he tries 
to put his mind to it again. (Dumbledore has now stopped their 
private lessons until Harry gets the memory, an added incentive.) He 
uses the Prince's book, but in a way that I think backs up Carol's 
point, which I thought was mischaracterized earlier. What I 
said "nobody was trying to say" was that Harry's Potions reputation 
was not a primary goal he set out to gain himself using the book. 
He's never particularly wanted to be known as a Potions genius. I 
still think nobody's claiming that.

I did not think Carol was saying this either. What Carol was saying, 
I thought, was simply that once Harry had this reputation as a 
result of the book he acted to keep it because it was convenient to 
him. She was showing that Harry in class was not focused on learning 
as much as he could from Slughorn or the book, but just doing well 
on the class assignments and getting out of there. Although the 
Prince teaches Harry a lot of spells that he practices himself, his 
effect on Harry's thinking is not always to make him more curious 
and bright. On the contrary, he's often just a sign of laziness. 
Harry can't think of what to do, so pages through the book hoping 
the Prince will give him an answer--I almost wrote an easy answer.

In this very scene you've quoted, Harry is paging through the book. 
Hermione says he won't find anything in there. Harry points out that 
without the book Ron would be dead. And then his eye is caught by a 
spell, Sectumsempra, that says it's "for enemies." He is 
immediately "itching to try it out" and folds down the corner of the 
page to do it later. He sounds like a pretty ordinary, distracted 
kid there, despite his destiny. A reader could certainly make 
connections between "enemies" and Voldemort, but I don't think it's 
accurate to say the scene or Harry is doing that.
 
> ......
> 
> 
> Harry fully expected to recieve low marks on his, because he had
> disagreed with Snape on the best way to tackle Dementors, but he 
did
> not care: Slughorns memory was the most important thing to him now.

Magpie:
No more of that being distracted by Quidditch and Apparition lessons 
and Malfoy then. Now he's really going to get down to it. Next class 
with Slugorn, definitely. And now that he's decided that, he can 
spend an entire chapter focused on Malfoy. If Harry were single-
minded he'd have never lasted as the protagonist of this particular 
book. It seems to me the whole point is different things being 
thrown at him for him to react to and juggle. So, for instance, on 
the very night he goes to get the memory he hopefully notes friction 
between Ginny and Dean.


> > Magpie:
> > Bezoars aren't a new thing. The practical
> > solution that Harry learned that day was the one the rest of the
> > class learned years before.
> >
> > Valky:
> > Clearly not well enough. ;)
> >
> > Magpie:
> > It's another, imo, to try to pretend Harry really was
> > showing how clever he is compared to the other students and 
taking
> > the thing in a more serious way and that he really lives up to 
how
> > Slughorn describes him afterwards. That's what reminds me of the
> > Dursleys with Dudley.
> 
> 
> Valky:
> I was only kidding with this answer. And I hardly think Harry was
> showing how clever he was by doing it. He didn't even know it would
> work, but it was the one answer he was able to give in what he felt
> was a desperate situation so he took the chance. It seemed to have
> paid off too, for a moment, until Slughorn clammed up about the
> memory, the Harry realised he need a different approach.

Magpie:
I thought you might be kidding--but Harry has been seriously 
defended as the one getting the right answer there, with the other 
kids not being as correct. It does pay off in that it shuts Slughorn 
up. The Prince does usually come through. But as I quoted above, 
when Harry is floundering on his own he thinks not of being 
unprepared for Voldemort or the loss of the memory or the loss of 
Slughorn's goodwill (never dependent on his false reputation), but 
Hermione's smug face.

 
> > Magpie:
> > Sometimes you do the easy
> > thing for a good reason, and if you're doing that I don't see why
> > you wouldn't be upfront about it.
> 
> 
> Valky:
> He's as upfront as he believes he can be given the circumstances. 
He's
> open with his two best friends about it, just as Dumbledore
> recommended to him he should be. He isn't going to be open with the
> rest of the WW, from his POV why should he be?

Magpie:
Sorry, I wasn't referring to Harry himself there, but his defense. 
Harry himself is upfront about it, from my pov. He doesn't tell it 
to everyone, but he's not lying to himself, I don't think. As I 
said, it seems like the only time he claims he's doing it for good 
reasons is when he's defending himself to Ron and Hermione and wants 
them off his back.


> > Magpie:
> > That doesn't answer what I said. If Harry is so focused on 
getting
> > the information out of the book, why is he just using the book in
> > class for everything Slughorn assigns in class?
> 
> 
> Valky:
> We only see some three or four classes detailed in canon, selected
> because of their plot importance. And even in those few snapshots 
we
> see Harry using the book for a variety of reasons.

Magpie:
None that show the Harry that you're describing as I understand him.


> > Valky:
> > This reminds me of debate that raged hot** pre-HBP about Snape
> > dropping Harry's potion in OOtP and thereby avoiding giving him 
the
> > grade that he *did* deserve - as inconsequential vs unfair :
> >
> > Magpie:
> > And it was unfair, imo. Luckily Harry's ultimate grades would 
not be
> > able to faked that way, but that doesn't change that what Snape 
did
> > was wrong--significantly so.
> 
> 
> Valky:
> I found it amusing to compare these two because of the very fierce
> argument that Harry's potions reputation with Snape didn't matter
> coming from the Snape-defenders camp there completely contradicts 
the
> Harrys reputation with Slughorn really does matter coming from the
> same camp in this thread.
> 
> I think it mattered entirely more in OOtP and before this new
> direction in Harry's life was taking him away from academic
> achievement, that he got the marks he deserved and the 
opportunities
> and choices that naturally go with that. After the fact, it's 
pretty
> obvious to me that neither situation matters.

Magpie:
Right, neither situation matters more than it matters. But within 
the context that it does matter they both have similar meaning. 
Harry himself has certainly thought it mattered when he wasn't the 
one benefitting from this sort of thing. He's angry in the moment 
when Snape is unfair to him. He doesn't obsess over it, but it still 
happened. It matters in a small way. Snape might not be doing 
something so terrible in that scene, but he's doing something.

 Magpie:
> > "No,
> > Harry's not being dishonest or faking at all
> 
> 
> Valky:
> When have I said that?

Magpie:
Sorry, I think I was referring to defenses where Harry's faking is 
really about real learning in ways I don't think it is.


> Magpie:
> > because the
> > consequences are limited and also he because Harry's really doing
> > what he's supposed to be doing anyway,
> 
> Valky:
> Yes I take full credit for that part.

Magpie:
I assume you mean you're just saying the consequences are small (and 
not as I said there, that because they are small Harry is not 
faking). As to Harry doing what he's supposed to be doing, I assume 
you mean Harry is focused on Voldemort over schoolwork, which I 
would agree is something he is "supposed to be doing." There, 
though, I think I was more referring to the idea that something like 
Harry's trick with the bezoar isn't a way of getting out of the 
assignment, but getting the better answer. 

And having gone through the book again looking for this stuff, and 
reading Carol's posts on it showing the chronology (and providing 
some of the quotes above--thanks Carol!) I think the HBP's textbook 
is even more shown to be part of a regular "student temptation" 
storyline than I'd thought. Harry does start protecting the book and 
his reputation before it becomes associated with neat spells and 
things. Harry's desire to keep the textbook is certainly 
understandable--who on earth would want to give it back? But he does 
in the beginning just seem to be a student wanting to hold onto and 
hide an advantage in class that has fallen into his lap. 

Harry might usually say he wants to be known for things he's 
actually done (as opposed to being TBWL), but I really think one of 
the themes in the HBP's storyline is temptation. Harry has never 
coveted a great reputation in Potions but once he's got one, and has 
gotten advantages from it, he doesn't want to deal with the 
humiliation of being found out. That seems to be the main thing 
behind his lying to Slughorn as I read it. That is the main point I 
keep trying to make about the story. The fact that Harry did not 
originally set out to gain himself this false reputation, and has 
never particularly wanted it, does not mean that he can't want to 
keep it. 

Another big theme of it, imo, is of course the "friendship" between 
teen!Harry and teen!Snape. It's important that Harry instinctively 
feels a connection to this character and wants to keep the book for 
that reason too. But I actually think it's kind of neat to be able 
to draw the temptation parallel as well. Young!Snape would not have 
been tempted in this way, since all indications show he really was a 
curious student. But he obviously fell to his own temptations, and 
perhaps they started as innocently as Harry's do.

-m