/On the trivial and the Profound/Lying & Cheating

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 165601

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sistermagpie" <belviso at ...> wrote:


Hi Magpie.
I think you and I are finding more and more level ground between us a
we go along here. 


>
> Magpie:
> Harry's perceived greatness might not be important in the general 
> scheme of things, I agree, but that doesn't take away from the 
> importance it does have. 


Valky:
Yes, I agree with you. It takes nothing away from the importance it
does have, it's just that importance registers rather more as a dot
than a blot on the blueprint of all in Harry Potter's life. 

That's not to say Harry doesn't create himself a big ugly blot in the
picture, because he does indeed. Hermione warned him of what he was
doing wrong often enough, but that was one of his major faults in what
he was doing, if he had just countered with a little more respect,
compassion and most of all trust in the feelings of his friends, he
would have taken Hermiones advice and acted more cautiously as
Hermione suggested. "Be careful", she said over, and over again. This
was the advice he needed, but failed to really take on. And it was
that, not the undeserved reputation, which was really the big blot in
his thinking.

Instead of being cautious, in his assumptions, in how far he was
willing to take an advantage and run with it, in how deeply he was
going to delve into the unknown; he sprinted head on into it, and that
was his mistake. The rest that he did, the basis of what he did, as
far as I can see, was all well justified, to a point, a point which he
did overstep. 



Magpie:
> Harry himself has certainly noted this sort 
> of thing as being wrong when he's not the one benefitting from it. 
> Maybe he gets over it, as he should, and doesn't become obsessed 
> with it, but it's not like he's above noting unfairness himself. 


Valky:
Yes he is noticing the unfairness, and he's feeling some guilt about
it too. And there's no doubt, if someone else was doing it, not to his
benefit, it would bother him, with Snape's potions class as a good
example of that. He does get over it, and ultimately with Snape, it's
the death of Sirius coupled with the invasiveness and distressing
events of the Occlumency lessons, that produces the unbridgeable rift
between them, not the petty things in class which are a bother and an
irritation, but are never all that deeply cutting in Harry's mind. 



Magpie:
> There are a lot of things people do in these books that have limited 
> importance in the general sense but are very important for their 
> character.


Valky:
Absolutely. The only part where I disagree here is the part where
following the academic rules to the letter would have been better for
Harry's character, it wouldn't have been. But taking a few cues from
his guilt would have lead him to balance Hermione's reminders of
reason with his appetite for progress that Ron was backing so strongly
in him. I'm saying the appetite was a good thing, but he really did
indulge it in an unbalanced way. While Hermione on the other hand,
alone with her reason, seemed to get too involved with that as well,
and a lot of what was to offer in the textbook either did, or very
nearly did, go begging. 

A little caution and a little less jumping the gun, would have been
good for Harry's character here. And as you said further down in your
post, Harry did buckle under the temptations that were offered by the
book - an easier time in a difficult class, mentions of his mother,
rewards he might otherwise not have gained like the Felix Felicis
(which was nothing short of a fluke incident). He was tempted to try
to make these histories repeat themselves beyond the point where it
was reasonable to go. Keeping the book, was reasonable, learning from
it to an advantage in magic class, also reasonable given the
circumstances, but losing himself in it to the point where he expected
it to perform daily miracles for him, that crossed the line as far as
I am concerned. 

Notice where I draw the line though, it's not at the point where any,
technical or otherwise, definition of cheating or plagarism exists,
it's beyond that point by a fair margin.  



> Magpie:
> I don't think the examples you've already given have been convincing 
> at all of what you seem to be claiming. Of course there are places 
> in the text where Harry is concerned with these things. 


Valky:
Yes, that was my point. That there are places in the text where he is
thinking about these things. Just as there are places where he is
thinking about other things. 

I'm sorry, I thought I was countering the notion that he wasn't
thinking about them at all.



Magpie:
> When he is, 
> he says so. But one of the characteristics of HBP is the way Harry 
> is juggling a number of different concerns and flips from one to the 
> other. 

Valky:
I agree with that. His focus is erratic and haphazard. He's not clear
on what he needs to focus on. This I think is a very strong indication
that he is troubled throughout HBP by the calling of his future with
Voldemort. Up until the last few chapters (until Ch 23) what that
calling is, is a complete mystery to him. It makes perfect sense that
he'd be just feeling around for something and acting pretty lost
before that. 



Magpie:
> When you step back and look at the whole thing, imo, you do 
> not get a Harry who's based around thinking he's going to die and 
> that he must prepare for the fight against Voldemort as much as 
> possible.

Valky:
Hmmm I disagree somewhat. If you take into account as I said, that he
is dealing with a mystery future that he doesn't know how to prepare
for, it does start to look that way.

In his first lesson with Dumbledore he asks what DD is going to teach
him, and he asks, will it help me to.. survive? It's never that he
doesn't care or has a relaxed attitude about all of that which he
faces, but what can he do when he doesn't know what he is facing. Make
the same mistakes that he did in OOtP over again? 

 

> Magpie:
> Harry has just been given a task of getting the memory from 
> Slughorn. He asks Slughorn for the memory and he gets upset. Harry 
> figures he'll lay off it for a while and vaguely plans to "attack" 
> him at some point in the future. 


Valky:
It's not really all that vaguely here either. He plans to lull
Slughorn into a false sense of security. He hangs upon the next
invitation coming so he can ask, and when it doesn't come, and
Slughorn continues to seem to be avoiding him he reviews that plan
thinking that perhaps Slughorn hasn't so easily forgotten the
situation despite appearances. Hermione tries to look it up for him
and finds nothing... and then almost immediately after in the first
apparition lesson Harry is distracted by a clue about what Draco is up
to, and that is when he begins to neglect the asking about the memory
spending the whole rest of the month spying on Draco's movements. 



Magpie:
> Harry's considering 
> going to one of Slughorn's parties, "even if he had to reschedule 
> Quidditch practice." As if Quidditch practice has importance too.

Valky:
LOL, yes I get your point. But he loves Quidditch, and Slughorn is so
creepy and his parties are just so smarmy, it's a thought so
distasteful to him, much like the idea of blowing off Ron to have a
cuppa with Snape, that he notes it as a serious consideration. He has
his priorities mixed up, yes, but I get the feeling it is at least
somewhat in this way, as opposed to the importance of the memory
compared to Quidditch.



 
Magpie:
> Harry is thinking about getting the memory, but he doesn't sound 
> that harried about it to me. He's deciding to do nothing for a 
> while.

Valky:
Yes, not a good decision, and he does review it. But overall, it is
indicative of a half-hearted effort, I agree. 


Magpie:
> As to the bezoar scene itself, I would also point out that the way 
> the scene is written, Harry connects the bezoar to "softening 
> Slughorn up" only afterwards, in response to Ron's complaints about 
> not sharing the tip--just as, iirc, he pulls out "Maybe there's 
> something in there that will help me with Voldemort" in response to 
> Hermione's scoldings. The entire scene leading up to the use of the 
> bezoar is focused not on Harry worrying about not getting the memory 
> but "annoyed" and "irritated" at Hermione's smugness at watching him 
> struggle without the Prince. In fact, when Harry finds the bezoar 
> note, it's not out of desperation, but irritation: "[Hermione] was 
> now decanting and mysterious separated ingredients....More to avoid 
> watching this irritating sight than anyting else, Harry ent over the 
> Half-Blood Prince's bok and turned a few pages with unneccesary 
> force. And there it was, scrawled right across a long list of 
> antidotes." 
> 
> It's understandable, imo, that many of us see Harry as being a 
> normal student in Potions. I honestly think he's written that way. 
> It's just that rather than being driven by an ambition to be the 
> best in class, Harry is driven to avoid the embarassment and 
> annoyance of being found out.


Valky:
Yes, I will concede that element is strong in the text. I think it's
more a case of him confusing the two ideas than coldly covering up a
guilty purpose with a non-existent idealistic purpose. 

The idealistic purpose exists, he planned to hold to it prior to the
class. It is somewhere in the moment in class where he gets the wires
crossed and begins to go down the ego road rather than the one he
intended to go down. Indicative here is him buckling under the
temptations of the book, as you said. I don't believe that is why he
keeps and hides the book, though. It's definitely an element of why he
crosses the line of whats reasonable and what's greedy or corrupt,
after having kept the book for fairly benevolent reasons.


Valky.