On lying and cheating (was:Lying vs Murder (was:Re: On lying and cheating)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 165594

> >>Mike:
> Playing the Advocate can cloud your meaning. What I meant was that 
> this supposed connection re potions causes *Harry* to realize how 
> much Slughorn loved Lily. I.E. it allowed Harry to figure out to    
> use his mom as the leverage point with Slughorn.
> <snip>
> This is where Harry's potions rep is used to advance his cause. And 
> had he not got the potions rep, Sluggy wouldn't have been          
> constantly comparing him to his mom. It's not a matter of Sluggy 
> being won over, it's a matter of Harry learning of Sluggy's soft    
> spot for Lily.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
But it's another unintended consequence.  So again, Harry does 
something stupid (lies) but luckily it turns out to give him a brain 
storm on how to get in good with Slughorn? Is that supposed to 
reflect well on him?

Moving away from the comparison with Snape ('cause I think that's 
been played out, personally <g>) I don't see anything to admire Harry 
for here.  It's like he left a rake lying around, stepped on it, got 
hit in the head, and happened to notice a bag of money stuck up in a 
tree while he was flat on his back on the ground.  Lucky for Harry 
and all, but nothing to point at and say "well played", etc. 

> >>Mike:
> <big snip>
> Harry neither seeks nor really wants this potions rep with          
> Slughorn, therefore I don't see it as something that Harry should   
> be held accountable for.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Of course Harry should be held accountable!  It's *Harry's* actions 
that got the whole ball rolling.  Whether or not Slughorn was 
predisposed to love whatever Harry got up to is of no consequence.  
Harry cannot control that.  But Harry *can* control himself, so of 
course he should be held accountable for his own actions.

I went back and looked at the scene where the lie first starts.  And 
I will say JKR made it very hard on Harry.  He starts off innocently 
enough (if you can term his overwhelming obsession with Draco 
innocent <eg>) attempting to beat (or maybe even just match at this 
point) Draco's Draught of Living Death.  (I'll point out that not 
once do any thoughts of beating Voldemort enter Harry's head.)

Harry runs into some difficulty and tries one of the Prince's 
suggestions and it works beautifully.  He follows a few more tips and 
is "elated" to find that his potion is the best.  At this point I'd 
even give Harry credit for his willingness to experiment a bit.  
Enter Slughorn.

"The clear winner!" he cried to the dungeon.  "Excellent, excellent, 
Harry!  Good lord, it's clear you've inherited your mother's talent.  
She was a dab hand at Potions, Lily was!  Here you are, then, here 
you are -- one bottle of Felix Felicis, as promised, and use it 
well!" [HBP scholastic p.191]

And here's where JKR makes it hard.  Slughorn doesn't question Harry 
at all about how he figured out the best way to make the potion.  So 
there's no *easy* moment where Harry could have said, "Oh there are 
some hand-written notes here that I followed."  Harry had to take the 
initiative, and he passively chose not to.  

(Though he does lie to Ron in order to keep the Slytherins' from 
finding out.  It's then that the Prince officially becomes Harry's 
secret.  Something only his closest friends know about.) 

But this was the time to stop the lie (natural talent on Harry's 
part) and Harry says nothing.  So badly done Harry, IMO.  A lesson 
yet to be learned (unfortunate for Harry, but probably good for us 
readers <g>).  Slughorn makes an assumption, but Harry allows it to 
grow.  And that's what I hold Harry accountable for.  

> >>Mike:
> More and more I'm convinced that the proper perspective is the     
> Grand Scheme of things that Valky is espousing, and that Steve and 
> Geoff (and myself) have added onto. Harry's focus with Dumbledore   
> and his lesson's is so far beyond his desire for his potion's rep   
> that it doesn't register as a concern.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
The proper perspective if you desire neverbadneverwrong!Harry (tm 
Kemper). <eg>  But this perspective does mean the boy's an a**hole 
who could care less for his friends.  Both Hermione and Ron are 
totally unamused by his fake "potion's genius" rep.  With both Ron 
and Hermione scowling at him from the sidelines Harry would need to 
be pretty self-absorbed to not register that he's lying.  (Probably 
why he spends so much time crying in the boys' bathroom... oh, 
wait... <g>)

Betsy Hp