On lying and cheating (was:Lying vs Murder (was:Re: On lying and cheating)

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 165651

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03"  wrote:
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> But it's another unintended consequence.  So again, Harry does 
> something stupid (lies) but luckily it turns out to give him a 
> brain storm on how to get in good with Slughorn? Is that supposed 
> to reflect well on him?

Mike:
Not admiring Harry here. As the DA, I was only responding to the 
question of what good did Harry's unearned potion rep do to advance 
the Order's cause. Just because it was unintended does not mean that 
it wasn't a valued result. I was deliberately limiting the scope to 
what good did having the rep do.


> Betsy Hp:
> It's like he left a rake lying around, stepped on it, got hit in 
> the head, and happened to notice a bag of money stuck up in a 
> tree while he was flat on his back on the ground. Lucky for Harry 
> and all, but nothing to point at and say "well played", etc.

Mike:
I think you and I <and the DA, begrudgingly> are in agreement that 
the potions brilliance wasn't well played at all. Still, Harry did 
get that bag of money -- in this case, the Felix and the memory -- 
out of it. An old saw comes to mind: I'd rather be lucky than good!
 


> > Mike previously:
> > <big snip>
> > Harry neither seeks nor really wants this potions rep with    
> > Slughorn, therefore I don't see it as something that Harry   
> > should be held accountable for.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Of course Harry should be held accountable! It's *Harry's* actions 
> that got the whole ball rolling.  Whether or not Slughorn was 
> predisposed to love whatever Harry got up to is of no consequence.  
> Harry cannot control that.  But Harry *can* control himself, so of 
> course he should be held accountable for his own actions.

Mike:
Slughorn slaps that rep on Harry, as you  pointed out, on day one. 
Also, as you pointed out, it was a rather chancy and by no means the 
obvious thing to follow the Princes hints on the DoLD potion. And 
even the folks that call the whole episodic journey with the Prince's 
book cheating, admit that on day one it's not fair to call Harry on 
it yet. So, yeah, I don't think it's fair to blame Harry for 
*getting* the rep. 

Whether we like it or not, Slughorn made this first class a 
competition. That being the case, Harry still made the attempt to 
clue Hermione in. <speaking of which, how stupid was Hermione in this 
exchange? She asks Harry how he did it. Harry tells her, then she 
says No!! What? You asked, he answered, but you tell him that's not 
how he did it?>


> Betsy Hp:
> And here's where JKR makes it hard.  Slughorn doesn't question 
> Harry at all about how he figured out the best way to make the 
> potion.  So there's no *easy* moment where Harry could have 
> said, "Oh there are some hand-written notes here that I followed."  
> Harry had to take the initiative, and he passively chose not to.

Mike:
Don't you think we would be holding Harry to a ridiculously high 
standard to expect him to speak up here? Had I had the good fortune 
to get that book <I wouldn't, I'd get Ron's puked on book :( > I 
would feel no obligation to speak up on the first day. I would 
probably try sharing it with my friends, like Harry did. But, I would 
certainly wait to see if the first time was an abberation or the real 
deal. In any case, I would never feel an obligation to share with 
Draco, the enemy, who Harry already expects is up to no good this 
year.


> Betsy Hp:
> (Though he does lie to Ron in order to keep the Slytherins' from 
> finding out.  It's then that the Prince officially becomes Harry's 
> secret.  Something only his closest friends know about.)

Mike:
Yes, and he corrects that lie as soon as he's out of earshot of the 
Slytherins. I'd call it a tactical or tactful response, instead of a 
lie. To each her own. ;-)

 
> Betsy Hp:
> But this was the time to stop the lie (natural talent on Harry's 
> part) and Harry says nothing.  So badly done Harry, IMO.  A lesson 
> yet to be learned (unfortunate for Harry, but probably good for us 
> readers <g>).  Slughorn makes an assumption, but Harry allows it to 
> grow.  And that's what I hold Harry accountable for. 

Mike:
As I have previously acceeded, letting the lie of potions champ 
continue was not one of Harry's shining moments. I wouldn't have 
expected him to set Slughorn straight on day one, but from there on 
out he must have had some oppurtunity to come clean. I'm still not 
sure it would have mattered with Slughorn, but that's Slughorn's 
problem.

 
> Betsy Hp:
> The proper perspective if you desire neverbadneverwrong!Harry (tm 
> Kemper). <eg>  But this perspective does mean the boy's an a**hole 
> who couldn't care less for his friends.  Both Hermione and Ron are 
> totally unamused by his fake "potion's genius" rep.  With both Ron 
> and Hermione scowling at him from the sidelines Harry would need to 
> be pretty self-absorbed to not register that he's lying. (Probably 
> why he spends so much time crying in the boys' bathroom... oh, 
> wait... <g>)

Mike:
OOhh, not fair. Harry did try to share with both Ron and Hermione. I 
think he would have been perfectly happy to have three brilliant 
potioneers in the class. Not that Slughorn would have noticed Ron 
anyway.<eg> 

On a different issue, same topic; I noticed that one out of every 
three chapters from school's start til the cave expedition are spent 
on DD lessons. If we add in the time spent discussing those lessons 
with R & H in the remaining interim chapters, I think it's unfounded 
to say that Harry really isn't concentrating on his biggest problem, 
ole Snakeface, during the year. Magpie's assessment of Harry juggling 
various priorities thru-out the year, strikes me as the most fair 
take on the matter. I would like to emphasize that Harry does spend a 
large portion of the year contemplating his coming trials by virtue 
of the fact that the DD lessons force him to.

Mike