Unbreakable Vows

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165629

> Snow:
> 
> Where has Dumbledore ever been presented to anyone as simply an 
old 
> man?
> Dumbledore may be the most powerful wizard that ever lived seeing 
as 
> Voldemort himself feared Dumbledore. 

Magpie:
Draco Malfoy isn't Voldemort, though. He speaks of Dumbledore 
disrespectfully as early as CoS--and continues to in HBP. He's just 
his headmaster. He's ignorant of how difficult this task is on all 
counts.

Snow:> 
> Draco's most cocky moment to me appeared on the train to Hogwarts 
> when he was boasting that he didn't really feel the need to be 
> bothered with education since the Dark Lord has him destined...to 
do 
> what? Kill someone that the Dark Lord himself can't do and is 
afraid 
> of? 

Magpie:
Draco is bragging about having been given a job, an opportunity, to 
prove himself the Dark Lord and so enter the real world. Draco has 
not yet met the reality of just how difficult his task is. He knows 
it's a big challenge, but at this point he's determined to meet that 
challenge. He's got no idea just how difficult what he's being asked 
to do is and in how many ways. He just knows he's been Chosen.

> Magpie:
> The Cabinets *are* Draco's method of killing Dumbledore himself. 
He 
> gets 
> backup to get himself to Dumbledore, and then he has to do it. The 
> Cabinets 
> are a way of working on killing DD, but also something putting it 
> off, 
> because the Cabinets aren't the killing part.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> The Cabinets are essential if Draco feels that he is in total need 
of 
> backup. Why would Draco cry to Myrtle if it were not for his 
failure 
> in procuring the entranceway through the cabinets? 

Magpie:
I'm not sure how this relates. Draco *does* want back up. That's 
what his whole plan is about. With back up, he will be able to kill 
Dumbledore (or he hopes he will, because he must).

> 
> Magpie:
> He's tasted some of the reality of death with Katie and Ron and is 
> beginning 
> to realize how hard his task is. The Cabinet isn't getting fixed 
and 
> Voldemort has started threatening him. So he's beginning to 
> understand how 
> hard this is, how he quite possibly is not going to be able to do 
it, 
> and 
> Voldemort threatening him and his family with death.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Katie and Ron would mean very little if not nothing at all to the 
boy 
> who is supposedly destined to kill the greatest wizard...

Magpie:
That's your interpretation of what Katie and Ron would mean and I 
don't think it's accurate. Why should Katie and Ron mean nothing at 
all to him? They might mean nothing to his father, but his father 
has the temperament to be a Death Eater and a murderer. Draco does 
not necessarily have that. If they meant nothing to him, I think 
he'd be more able to kill at the end. This is the first time Draco's 
ever been in this kind of situation. If he's not acting the way we 
think he should act in the situation, it's possible we're wrong 
about him and not the situation.

Regardless, even if you don't think Katie and Ron have begun to make 
murder more real to him, he's still got plenty of reasons to cry in 
the bathroom later in the year than he did in the beginning when he 
didn't know how hard this all would be, and how threatening 
Voldemort would be.

> 
> Magpie:
> Yes, he sort of is closer to killing Dumbledore. The Cabinets 
bring 
> the DEs 
> in, and that's supposed to pave his way. (Plus, he's done 
something 
> right. 
> He is, imo, genuinely pleased to have actually completed something 
> he's been 
> trying to do for so long.)
> 
> Snow:
> 
> Yes, Draco is pleased with himself but the question still remains 
as 
> to why he would be. Draco is no closer to his objective of 
securing 
> Dumbledore's fate than he was before, why the celebration? 

Magpie:
Because he is closer to his objective. He's fixed the Vanishing 
Cabinets to get backup into the school, and with the backup he's 
supposedly going to be able to kill Dumbledore. He's celebrating the 
completion of this step in his plan, one that he's been working on 
for a long time. As long as the Cabinets couldn't be fixed he didn't 
know what to do. Now he thinks things will begin to go his way.


> Magpie:
> The Deatheaters *are* there to help fulfill his assignment. They 
are 
> his 
> backup who will make it so that all he has to do is point his wand 
> and do 
> the curse. The delusional concept is that killing is as easy as 
> pointing a 
> wand and saying the words. It is somewhat stupid, but despite 
Malfoy 
> not 
> being one of the world's great thinkers, it's not all that dumb 
for a 
> naive 
> adolescent. He doesn't have all that many choices from his pov, so 
he 
> pretty 
> much has to go forward as far as he can.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> You have acknowledged yourself that Draco is a naïve adolescent. 
Can 
> you honestly think that such a person could possibly feel he had a 
> half-a-chance-in-hell of killing the most powerful wizard that may 
> have ever lived? 

Magpie:
Yes! Of course! He's naive and adolescent. He doesn't understand the 
difficulty. There's not even really a reason why he should, he's 
that naive. Snape, who is not naïve, is the one who knows how 
impossible it is. (At the end Draco reveals that he knows everyone 
thought he would die; he was, it seems, determined to prove them 
wrong.)

> Magpie:
> I tend to think it's one of those things like the Life Debt. It 
> doesn't hold 
> up to scrutiny but it makes sense on the face of it. It's 
> just "promise to 
> do this or else you die." As for Draco, there I have no problem. 
He 
> seems to 
> be acting perfectly in character for me throughout the story. 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> If a life debt acted the way in which you are proposing, Pettigrew 
> would be dead right now. A life debt is not a promise it is more 
of a 
> responsibility with no time limit. You owe someone your life. 

Magpie:
Sorry, that's not what I meant. I didn't mean that the Life Debt 
killed you--I don't think it does. My point was that some of these 
things JKR has created are like adding magical touches to the kind 
of ideas kids instinctively get. So a Life Debt is just a situation 
where you feel like you really owe somebody something. An 
Unbreakable Vow is where you've really promised to do something for 
somebody. It doesn't hold up to loopholes and scrutiny, imo, and 
it's not supposed to. I'd also add the TriWizard tournament to that. 
Why doesn't anyone find a loophole in Harry's participation? He 
could show up at the events but not compete, or immediately take 
last place. But he doesn't. It's just covered in "Ancient magic--
once your name comes out you've got to compete" and it's understood 
he's just got to compete to the best of his ability. 

> Snow:
> 
> A parasite is not Voldemort himself breaching security; Voldemort 
was 
> denied his breach of Hogwarts when Tom applied for a teaching 
> position. 
> 
> As for a group of Deatheaters being the same as or equal to a 
single 
> member (the member in question is still under scrutiny, at least 
to 
> me), I would have to disagree. 

Magpie:
Voldemort has been in Hogwarts, a Death Eater has been in Hogwarts. 
(I was referring to Barty Crouch the teacher there, not Snape. 
There's no doubt of his loyalties.) That's pretty close to what 
we're talking about, with only technical distinctions that don't 
seem to me to carry much weight. It seems like we're just raising 
the bar so that it fits Snape's line about Voldemort never having 
done this thing. But why do that when we know for a fact that Draco 
was supposed to kill Dumbledore and that was what Snape was 
referring to--something that had also been built up as a known issue 
with Voldemort?


> Snow:
> > This was not exactly what I had in mind when I made the statement
> > that I did. I agree that Dumbledore was always the target, I just
> > don't think Draco or his mother were aware that he was the only 
one
> > destined to do the deed of the actual killing.
> 
> Magpie:
> They don't? But isn't that the subject of all their early 
> conversations? 
> That's why Narcissa comes to Snape, because it's Draco who's got 
to 
> do it. 
> Snape says yes, he has to do it. Draco talks about how there's 
> something 
> he's got to do.
> 
> Snow: 
> 
> No, I don't think they do. What is it that Draco has to do at that 
> point, is exactly my controversy. 

Magpie:
But it's put forth perfectly straightforwardly in the story, which 
all revolves around Draco's committing this murder. That's what 
Draco is trying to do, that's what Draco can not do, that is what 
Snape does for him.

> Magpie:
> So you mean Snape didn't know he was vowing to kill Dumbledore 
> because he 
> thought Draco was just trying to get the DEs into Hogwarts? That 
> doesn't 
> support the drama I'm seeing throughout the story, or any of the 
> characters 
> reactions. I also don't think it fits the way JKR writes. She 
writes 
> bold, 
> clear, tragic things. It all fits together beautifully if you take 
> the 
> straightforward stuff that's there and fit it together simply. 
Imo, 
> when we 
> start complicating things with offscreen mistakes and mind-
changes, 
> and 
> confusion...it turns to mush for me.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> No disrespect meant but are we reading the same writing? JKR is 
> anything but clear or bold in her cleverness, which is why she is 
so 
> awesome. 

Magpie:
Yes, we are. JKR is very clear and bold in her cleverness. If she 
wasn't the cleverness would be lost in confusion, which I think is 
happening here. The book is over. Most of these shoes are dropped. 
Scabbers was Peter Pettigrew. Moody was Barty Crouch. Ginny opened 
the Chamber. Voldemort wanted to get Harry to the MoM for the 
Prophecy. Draco was trying to kill Dumbledore and Snape did it 
instead. Quirrel had Voldemort on his head. Clear and bold and 
clever. Everything fitting together. With my view that it's clear, 
the book holds together and comes to a satisfying conclusion. With 
your feeling that it can't be clear, we're still puzzling over what 
happened in a book we all read over a year ago. That's not awesome, 
imo.

> 
> Magpie continued: 
> There's absolutely nothing preventing it from being 
straightforward: 
> Draco's 
> given the task of killing Dumbledore. Narcissa goes to Snape and 
asks 
> him to 
> intercede so Draco doesn't have to kill Dumbledore. Snape vows to 
> protect 
> Draco and kill Dumbledore if it seems Draco won't be able to do 
it, 
> since 
> they all know he won't. (God knows why he vows this, but he does.) 
> 
> Snow:
> 
> First off, your end quotation is why I question this in the first 
> place. 
> Secondly, your first sentence I have to rebuttal with; JKR is 
> anything but straightforward.

Magpie:
I think she really is straightforward. She misdirects, but 
ultimately she is fair about how she plays with readers, eventually 
giving them the answers they need. We enjoy being misdirected 
because it pays off when we're told the truth. As to why Snape takes 
the vow, that is a big honkin' mystery hanging out there, but one 
(according to how JKR plays fair, imo) that will need to be solved 
fitting all the things we already know. The answer for why Snape 
took the Vow can not, imo, un-write HBP. It has to incorporate 
answers revealed in that book.

 
> Magpie continuing: 
> Meanwhile, Draco is eager to prove himself by killing Dumbledore. 
He 
> has a 
> special plan to do so, due to his knowing about Montague. He will 
fix 
> the 
> Cabinet so that he can get a whole team of DEs into the castle to 
do 
> the 
> fighting and give him his clear shot at Dumbledore, which he will 
> then take. 
> When the Cabinets aren't easily fixed he tries other ways of 
killing. 
> The 
> pressure gets worse, everything gets more real, and we get the end 
we 
> get.
> 
> Snow:
> 
> JKR has proven herself to be deceptive throughout the series so 
why 
> would I doubt her strategy on any point?

Magpie:
How do you mean she is deceptive here? I'm saying she's 
straightforward in that she finishes a book that reveals certain 
answers and then moves on. There's not several shifting answers to 
questions, because that would, imo, not allow the books to be fun 
recognition mysteries that improve on re-reading. Further answers, 
imo, need to add to the revelations of earlier books without 
destroying them.

-m