Unbreakable Vows

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 165616




> Snow:
>
> I'm not actually looking for loopholes; they just seem to appear to
> me like huge question marks.
>
> I can not get my head around the fact that Draco seems to be so very
> confident that he can kill Dumbledore at the beginning, when (as you
> say yourself further down) Voldemort has never succeeded in doing 
so.
>
> What would make Draco feel so confident in the deed assigned to him
> if in fact it was to kill Dumbledore at his own hand?

Magpie:
Where does he seem so very confident? He's pleased with himself early 
on, 
but having never killed anyone before he's just clueless. I think to 
him 
Dumbledore's an old man and he's got this task and he hasn't really 
faced 
the reality yet.

Snow:

Where has Dumbledore ever been presented to anyone as simply an old 
man?
Dumbledore may be the most powerful wizard that ever lived seeing as 
Voldemort himself feared Dumbledore. 

Draco's most cocky moment to me appeared on the train to Hogwarts 
when he was boasting that he didn't really feel the need to be 
bothered with education since the Dark Lord has him destined...to do 
what? Kill someone that the Dark Lord himself can't do and is afraid 
of? 

Snow:
> As others have noticed, as well as me, Draco seemed to be quite pre-
> occupied with the cabinets if his main objective was to kill
> Dumbledore "himself" from the get go. Granted, attempts were made on
> Dumbledore's life but they were quite feeble attempts, like his 
heart
> really wasn't in it, if Dumbledore was `his' main objective.

Magpie:
The Cabinets *are* Draco's method of killing Dumbledore himself. He 
gets 
backup to get himself to Dumbledore, and then he has to do it. The 
Cabinets 
are a way of working on killing DD, but also something putting it 
off, 
because the Cabinets aren't the killing part.

Snow:

The Cabinets are essential if Draco feels that he is in total need of 
backup. Why would Draco cry to Myrtle if it were not for his failure 
in procuring the entranceway through the cabinets? 

Snow:
> Then we have Draco's meltdown where he was allowing himself to be
> consoled by a muggleborn ghost, what changed, where's mister-cocky-
> attitude now?

Magpie:
He's tasted some of the reality of death with Katie and Ron and is 
beginning 
to realize how hard his task is. The Cabinet isn't getting fixed and 
Voldemort has started threatening him. So he's beginning to 
understand how 
hard this is, how he quite possibly is not going to be able to do it, 
and 
Voldemort threatening him and his family with death.

Snow:

Katie and Ron would mean very little if not nothing at all to the boy 
who is supposedly destined to kill the greatest wizard...

Snow:
> After this we have Draco's whoops in the Room of Requirement as if 
he
> just felt he had won the big prize and yet he is no closer to 
killing
> Dumbledore (himself) than he was before.

Magpie:
Yes, he sort of is closer to killing Dumbledore. The Cabinets bring 
the DEs 
in, and that's supposed to pave his way. (Plus, he's done something 
right. 
He is, imo, genuinely pleased to have actually completed something 
he's been 
trying to do for so long.)

Snow:

Yes, Draco is pleased with himself but the question still remains as 
to why he would be. Draco is no closer to his objective of securing 
Dumbledore's fate than he was before, why the celebration? 

Snow:
> Was Draco just under some delusional concept all along that he would
> never have to kill Dumbledore at all, that the Deatheaters would be
> there to help fulfill his assignment? That wouldn't be cocky that
> would be stupid.

Magpie:
The Deatheaters *are* there to help fulfill his assignment. They are 
his 
backup who will make it so that all he has to do is point his wand 
and do 
the curse. The delusional concept is that killing is as easy as 
pointing a 
wand and saying the words. It is somewhat stupid, but despite Malfoy 
not 
being one of the world's great thinkers, it's not all that dumb for a 
naive 
adolescent. He doesn't have all that many choices from his pov, so he 
pretty 
much has to go forward as far as he can.

Snow:

You have acknowledged yourself that Draco is a naïve adolescent. Can 
you honestly think that such a person could possibly feel he had a 
half-a-chance-in-hell of killing the most powerful wizard that may 
have ever lived? 

Snow:> 
> As far as the Vow itself, concerning loopholes, JKR has already
> established that fact when the stipulations to the Vow were so vague
> in content compounded by out of character responses from a youngster
> who has presumably been assigned the task of killing the greatest
> wizard of his time. This is the biggest question mark of all. It 
just
> doesn't fit well for me.

Magpie:
I tend to think it's one of those things like the Life Debt. It 
doesn't hold 
up to scrutiny but it makes sense on the face of it. It's 
just "promise to 
do this or else you die." As for Draco, there I have no problem. He 
seems to 
be acting perfectly in character for me throughout the story. 

Snow:

If a life debt acted the way in which you are proposing, Pettigrew 
would be dead right now. A life debt is not a promise it is more of a 
responsibility with no time limit. You owe someone your life. 

>snipped response to Neri<

>Snow:
> Very good reply! Of course now I have to nitpick a few points;
> Voldemort has never infiltrated Hogwarts as himself (a parasite
> wouldn't really count would it); Crouch Jr. would not be counted as 
a
> group of DE's.

Magpie:
Why wouldn't a parasite count? He's acting as himself, being himself. 
At one 
point he was able to walk in and request a job. It's only this year 
Hogwarts 
even has this much security. I don't think a group of DEs would be a 
big 
deal compared to one DE--one that's a teacher and has the run of the 
place 
all year! Obviously security has been breached. I think it's obvious 
what 
they're referring to is the thing that's been stressed as something 
Voldemort can't do, which is kill Dumbledore. Other suggestions, to 
me, are 
lame by comparison, storywise. Killing Dumbledore's got just the 
right 
drama.


Snow:

A parasite is not Voldemort himself breaching security; Voldemort was 
denied his breach of Hogwarts when Tom applied for a teaching 
position. 

As for a group of Deatheaters being the same as or equal to a single 
member (the member in question is still under scrutiny, at least to 
me), I would have to disagree. 

Snow:
> This was not exactly what I had in mind when I made the statement
> that I did. I agree that Dumbledore was always the target, I just
> don't think Draco or his mother were aware that he was the only one
> destined to do the deed of the actual killing.

Magpie:
They don't? But isn't that the subject of all their early 
conversations? 
That's why Narcissa comes to Snape, because it's Draco who's got to 
do it. 
Snape says yes, he has to do it. Draco talks about how there's 
something 
he's got to do.

Snow: 

No, I don't think they do. What is it that Draco has to do at that 
point, is exactly my controversy. 

Me previously:
> If the assignment were to just kill Dumbledore by any means with all
> necessary help at your disposal (like Draco's remark about Fenrir to
> Borgins or was it Burk?), then I could see Draco acting cocky as he
> did at the beginning, and I could see Narcissa being as worried as
> she was.
>
> This doesn't make that much appearing difference to the storyline 
but
> it does explain character response. I simply don't agree that Draco
> nor anyone else (except Voldemort), was aware at the time of the 
Vow,
> that Draco had to be the lone killer.

Magpie:
One of the major themes of Draco's story is the difference between 
reality 
and fantasy killing. Draco can be cocky because it's not real. He 
doesn't 
get it yet.

Though I'd also add Draco's not *that* cocky. He's very pleased with 
being 
chosen and having this important task, but he's never particularly 
arrogant 
about doing it. He seems a lot more quietly focused on the actual 
doing of 
it. He thinks he can do it, which is rather arrogant I suppose, but 
it's not 
amazingly arrogant. It's a challenge and he's determined to do it. I 
don't 
think he ever really suggests he thinks it's going to be that easy, 
even 
when he's getting pleasure out of dropping hints about it.

Snow:

It could be that I am a lone survivor and am the only person who 
reads the text this way but when I couple this scene, with all its 
innuendo, to all the other scenes with all their innuendo's, it just 
feels like one too many innuendo's for me. 

Snow:
> It doesn't appear to make much of a difference on the surface until
> you take into consideration Snape's hesitation in making the Vow and
> his spat with Dumbledore much later.
>
> Snape felt that he was protecting a child from making a way to
> Dumbledore's demise (which is bad enough) only to find out that he
> was protecting the child that would ultimatly be his demise and if
> Draco couldn't do it then Snape was held accountable.

Magpie:
So you mean Snape didn't know he was vowing to kill Dumbledore 
because he 
thought Draco was just trying to get the DEs into Hogwarts? That 
doesn't 
support the drama I'm seeing throughout the story, or any of the 
characters 
reactions. I also don't think it fits the way JKR writes. She writes 
bold, 
clear, tragic things. It all fits together beautifully if you take 
the 
straightforward stuff that's there and fit it together simply. Imo, 
when we 
start complicating things with offscreen mistakes and mind-changes, 
and 
confusion...it turns to mush for me.

Snow:

No disrespect meant but are we reading the same writing? JKR is 
anything but clear or bold in her cleverness, which is why she is so 
awesome. 

Magpie continued: 
There's absolutely nothing preventing it from being straightforward: 
Draco's 
given the task of killing Dumbledore. Narcissa goes to Snape and asks 
him to 
intercede so Draco doesn't have to kill Dumbledore. Snape vows to 
protect 
Draco and kill Dumbledore if it seems Draco won't be able to do it, 
since 
they all know he won't. (God knows why he vows this, but he does.) 

Snow:

First off, your end quotation is why I question this in the first 
place. 
Secondly, your first sentence I have to rebuttal with; JKR is 
anything but straightforward.

Magpie continuing: 
Meanwhile, Draco is eager to prove himself by killing Dumbledore. He 
has a 
special plan to do so, due to his knowing about Montague. He will fix 
the 
Cabinet so that he can get a whole team of DEs into the castle to do 
the 
fighting and give him his clear shot at Dumbledore, which he will 
then take. 
When the Cabinets aren't easily fixed he tries other ways of killing. 
The 
pressure gets worse, everything gets more real, and we get the end we 
get.

Snow:

JKR has proven herself to be deceptive throughout the series so why 
would I doubt her strategy on any point?