On the trivial and the profound.

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 165686

> Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
>> Tangent:  What if that wouldn't matter to the Vow?  What if the 
> person who made the Vow would die (given that Arthur told Ron a 
> universal truth about the UV) if it wasn't his hand (or, in this 
> case, Draco's and then Snape's) that did the deed?  What if that 
was 
> what DD was pleading, that Snape look at him and see that the 
> conditions of the Vow was about to become null and void, that DD 
was 
> dying and that if this happened, Snape would be dead as well?  
This 
> doesn't presage an agreement between them to kill DD.  It builds 
on 
> the realities of the moment alone.  But, I've only just thought of 
> this.  I may forget about it, or I may refine it.

Alla:

Mmmmmmm, you mean that as long as Somebody not even Snape 
necessarily makes UV to kill DD and DD dies for whatever reason and 
not from the hands of that person, that person would be dead anyways 
as soon as that happened?



Ceridwen: 
> And as long as I'm mentioning ideas I've had, I think Snape lost 
> whatever edge the open-ended wording of the Vow gave him when the 
DEs 
> told him that Draco couldn't perform his task.  "if it seems he 
might 
> fail" in my opinion became binding to the Tower once someone 
voiced 
> to Snape that Draco couldn't do it.

Alla:

Yes, I think I can agree with this one.


> Nikkalmati:
> > I personally think SS had grave doubts, but went ahead without 
> knowing exactly what the task was. Others think he intended to die 
> rather than carry out the task or that he thought he and DD could 
> avoid the consequences (but of course they couldn't). If he is DDM 
> choosing a course which may lead to his death or DD's, is rational 
if 
> it contributes enough to LV's demise. 
> 
> Ceridwen:
> I agree with the last sentence.  The overall mission is to get rid 
of 
> Voldemort and his organization, not to preserve the life of 
> individual Good Guy combatants.  That would be nice, but in a war, 
it 
> isn't feasable.  I go back and forth on whether Snape knew what 
> Draco's task was.  He was very mysterious in Spinner's End, never 
> mentioning what the task was.  But, Narcissa, who clearly knew, 
> didn't mention it either, and neither did Bellatrix.  So I go back 
> and forth between Snape's actions and words, and JKR's necessity 
to 
> hide the information as long as possible from her target audience.


Alla:

Wait Ceridwen, wait one second. I guess I am arguing with you both, 
but how is it rational in any way, shape or form if Snape knows what 
he is pleading to do, and that would lead to the death of Dumbledore?

You mean, Snape makes a determination that perfectly alive at that 
moment (no ring curse, no cave drink, no nothing) the greatest 
wizard of all time, the **only** one Voldemort ever feared, um, is 
not necessary for war efforts anymore and whatever consequences 
Snape is thinking after UV would serve war efforts better, than 
alive Dumbledore?

May I strongly disagree with you if that is so? Dumbledore seemed to 
lead war efforts quite nicely to me ( well, okay making many 
mistakes, but still :) so far and who the heck gave Snape the right 
to decide that he should do away with Dumbledore, because then they 
have a better chance to win?

And of course here I am only talking about war related calculations, 
not the ethics of the situation, which seemed to me very 
questionable at best?


 
> Nikkalmati:
> > The UV does not cause SS to kill DD in HBP, unless you think 
SS's 
> motive on the Tower was only self-preservation and not the 
protection 
> of Draco, Harry and the school. If SS had not "killed" DD, DD 
would 
> have died at the hand of Draco or the DE's, and Harry would have 
died 
> to boot (I don't believe in John Wayne!Snape killing all of the 
DE's 
> before they can kill any of the good guys DD, Harry or SS). It is 
> perfectly possible to imagine the Tower happening without the UV 
> having any part in it at all.

Alla:

Possible? Of course it is possible. It is also possible to imagine 
entirely different story - such as Draco lowering his wand 
**before** Snape rushing in, Dumbledore fighting some DE and Snape 
helping him, Snape breaking the barrier, Snape bringing people from 
the Order with him, because I see Snape deliberately not bringing 
order fighters with him there, frankly.

But of course since that "kill or die"" is on his mind, could he do 
so? Not IMO.

JMO of course, but oh man, I think in case nobody knows yet that UV 
was either the stupidiest act Snape committed or the most evil one.

Alla.