On the trivial and the profound.

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 165690

Alla:
> Mmmmmmm, you mean that as long as Somebody not even Snape 
necessarily makes UV to kill DD and DD dies for whatever reason and 
not from the hands of that person, that person would be dead anyways 
as soon as that happened?

Ceridwen:
Just something that struck me as I was responding.  I try to see all 
sides of things when I'm not absolutely married to them, so it just 
struck me that maybe the UV has a lot more control than we think.  
I'm not even entirely sure the UV kills someone who doesn't fulfill 
it.  As I mentioned, I think "Unbreakable" means that the person 
*cannot* break it.  The UV killing if the person does not fulfill it 
would mean that it's possible for someone to not fulfill the vow.  
So, I'm less inclined to believe what I wrote there.  Just off on a 
tangent.  :)

Alla:
> Wait Ceridwen, wait one second. I guess I am arguing with you both, 
but how is it rational in any way, shape or form if Snape knows what 
he is pleading to do, and that would lead to the death of Dumbledore?

Ceridwen:
I was only focusing on the Tower scene, not on the UV.  But, in a war 
effort, everyone is expendable to the mission.  Some people, like 
Dumbledore and DDM!Spy!Snape, are less expendable than others, but 
we're not talking about a cult-type cause which may be merely 
personality-driven.  LV poses a threat to the WW, and to the Muggle 
world both.  The only person who is not expendable is Harry, and 
Dumbledore went to great lengths to say this at the Sea-Cave.  The 
mission is a primary thing in a war.  Cult figures should not apply 
to positions as military or paramilitary leaders.

Alla:
> You mean, Snape makes a determination that perfectly alive at that 
moment (no ring curse, no cave drink, no nothing) the greatest wizard 
of all time, the **only** one Voldemort ever feared, um, is not 
necessary for war efforts anymore and whatever consequences Snape is 
thinking after UV would serve war efforts better, than alive 
Dumbledore?

Ceridwen:
Oh, I'm so glad you put in those parentheses!  Because I do think DD 
had already been hit by the ring curse.  Snape mentions that 
Dumbledore is not at the top of his game, and suggests that his 
decline was caused by the fight with LV at the Ministry.  However, 
since I think the first four chapters of HBP take place on the same 
night, then DD will already have tackled the ring, and Snape has 
already saved him, something Snape conveniently doesn't mention to 
the Black sisters.  Dumbledore himself is behaving as if he's on 
borrowed time.  It could well be that DADA expert Snape knows, or 
believes, that Dumbledore will die before the end of the school year 
at this point in the story.  They would have discussed the injury, 
even if DD didn't tell Snape how he got it, when Snape fixed him up.

Alla:
> May I strongly disagree with you if that is so? Dumbledore seemed 
to lead war efforts quite nicely to me ( well, okay making many 
mistakes, but still :) so far and who the heck gave Snape the right 
to decide that he should do away with Dumbledore, because then they 
have a better chance to win?

Ceridwen:
When Snape agrees to take the UV, Narcissa has only iterated two 
points, neither of which has anything to do with killing Dumbledore 
except in the most remote way.

Tangent: Watching over and protecting Draco, and helping him, doesn't 
necessarily mean what Narcissa thinks it means.  That's a problem 
with all this mystical stuff.  You can pray for a promotion at work, 
meaning no harm to anyone, only good things.  Maybe retirement, or 
even promotions all around.  You do get the promotion, but because 
the person who held that position unexpectedly died.  This wasn't 
your intention at all, but it's the way your prayer was fulfilled.

Back on track:  Snape agrees to the first two clauses before joining 
hands with Narcissa.  IF the UV is binding from that point on, then 
Narcissa played a dirty trick on Snape by throwing in that last 
clause.  He could not have gotten out of it at that point, IF the UV 
takes charge from the joining of hands onward.  A mother afraid for 
her son's life would understandably do whatever it takes to save her 
son, so I can completely see Sneaky!Narcissa's reasoning here.  But 
she played Snape unfairly after invoking such long-term friendship, 
being Draco's favorite teacher, and so on.

So, it's possible, given a certain interpretation of the UV, that 
Snape would not have thought a bit about Dumbledore actually dying by 
his or Draco's hand at this point, since Narcissa didn't tell him 
about a third clause.  Dumbledore's death and the war effort wouldn't 
have come into his thoughts at all.  Now, given a different 
interpretation of the UV, that Snape could have refused the third 
clause, then yes, I can agree with you that it was not Snape's place 
to decide Dumbledore's importance in the overall scheme of things.  
I'm just talking from my own idea of the UV.

Alla:
> And of course here I am only talking about war related 
calculations, not the ethics of the situation, which seemed to me 
very questionable at best?

Ceridwen:
I think that most of what the DEs think is standard fare, is 
questionable.  Unbreakable Vows, hidden clauses, prejudice, violence 
to achieve their ends, are not the sorts of things decent people 
usually do.  When Snape deals with DEs, he is, in effect, one of 
them, whether he actually is LVM!Snape, or playing the part for the 
war effort.  So I do think he has done questionable things in the 
past, while still "slithering out" of other things according to 
Bellatrix.

Now, about the part where the UV didn't need to have anything to do 
with the Tower scene.  I can't speak for Nikkalmati, of course, but 
my interpretation of what she said is that, under those exact 
circumstances, then Snape didn't have much of a choice anyway.  Some 
people who say that the UV will kill you if you break its clauses, 
have said that, under the Tower's circumstances, Snape couldn't 
happily sacrifice his life even though he may have intended to.  This 
can be spread out to mean that there was no other way up there, 
whether or not there was a UV in place.

With Dumbledore's original injury, which was not healing; with 
Dumbledore's behavior seeming to mean he thinks his time is short; 
with the potion that he drank making him so weak he passes out a 
couple of times before even reaching the Tower, and making him 
turning paler as the minutes ticked by, and making him so weak that 
he's sliding down as he's talking to Draco; with the presence of the 
other DE's, including or in addition to Fenrir Greyback; with Harry 
frozen to the castle wall under his Invisibility Cloak, since Harry 
is the only person in the war who is not expendable, then whether 
Snape took a UV to protect Draco or not, the only thing he could have 
done to save *Harry* (not even worried about Draco here, since we're 
shoving the UV aside), may have been to kill DD to convince the DEs 
to leave before Harry came out fighting.

A DDM!Snape would need Harry to live.  Dumbledore himself had 
mentioned that he is expendable while Harry isn't, just pages before 
this scene.  LV has made the prophecy relevant by acting on it, I 
imagine in some way like a magical contract is made.  LV's actions 
created his own worst enemy.  He may fear Dumbledore, but he should 
more fear Harry.  By his actions, he has ensured that Harry is the 
means of his destruction, not Dumbledore, not Snape, not R.A.B.  So I 
guess this paragraph all comes down to whether you believe Snape is 
DDM or LVM.

I hope I've explaned myself well!  I don't always, and I think this 
may be one of those times.  Ugh!

Ceridwen.