On the trivial and the profound.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165697

Ceridwen wrote:
> Just something that struck me as I was responding.  I try to see all 
> sides of things when I'm not absolutely married to them, so it just 
> struck me that maybe the UV has a lot more control than we think.  
> I'm not even entirely sure the UV kills someone who doesn't fulfill 
> it.  As I mentioned, I think "Unbreakable" means that the person 
> *cannot* break it.  The UV killing if the person does not fulfill it 
> would mean that it's possible for someone to not fulfill the vow.  
> So, I'm less inclined to believe what I wrote there.  Just off on a 
> tangent.  :) <snip>

Carol responds:
I'm not so sure. The only canon we have at the moment about how the UV
works is Ron's statement that if you break it, you die. (Aside on the
Weasley Twins: They were five years old and probably could not have
performed the vow effectively, but Arthur's reaction is in keeping
with the real consequences if they had succeeded. When has he ever hit
the Twins for any reason? And yet Fred speaks of his "left buttock" in
terms that indicate that he, and presumably George, were severely
punished by spanking or whipping.) 

I agree with you and Alla that the brutal-faced Death Eater's words
about Draco being unable to kill DD triggered the Vow. I don't think,
however, that Snape was robbed of his choice at that point or he would
have killed Dumbledore immediately. Instead, as DD speaks his name, he
exchanges glances with him. His expression changes to one of (self?)
hatred and revulsion, but he still doesn't raise his wand, as he would
have to do if the UV compelled him to act. He has the choice, as Draco
did, to do the deed or refuse to do it. Draco remains "irresolute,"
never making any choice beyond a fractional lowering of his wand, and
Snape for a moment remains in a similar position. Only when Dumbledore
says, "Severus, please," does he choose between an action that would
mean his death, such as trying to save Dumbledore or attacking the
Death Eaters and fulfilling the vow by killing Dumbledore (which, as
I've already argued, is the only way to save the two boys and get the
DEs out of Hogwarts).

At any rate, I see no reason to doubt the canon we have, even if the
source is Ron, that breaking a UV kills the person who breaks it. As I
said, if the UV compelled Snape to kill Dumbledore, he would have done
it without hesitation the moment the UV was triggered. I think he
*chose* to keep it, very much against his will, because that's what
Dumbledore wanted.

BTW, thank you, Ceridwen, for pointing out that I *suggested* that it
might have been impossible to escape the third provision once Snape
was bound to Narcissa by ropes of fire, as opposed to *arguing* that
point. I'm not certain how the vow works, nor do I know any more than
anyone else what Snape's motives were in taking it, especially that
provision. I'm only presenting that idea for consideration, not
arguing that I'm right on that point.

> Ceridwen:
> Oh, I'm so glad you put in those parentheses!  Because I do think DD
had already been hit by the ring curse.  Snape mentions that 
Dumbledore is not at the top of his game, and suggests that his
decline was caused by the fight with LV at the Ministry.  However,
since I think the first four chapters of HBP take place on the same 
night, then DD will already have tackled the ring, and Snape has 
already saved him, something Snape conveniently doesn't mention to 
the Black sisters.  Dumbledore himself is behaving as if he's on 
borrowed time.  It could well be that DADA expert Snape knows, or 
believes, that Dumbledore will die before the end of the school year
at this point in the story.  They would have discussed the injury, 
even if DD didn't tell Snape how he got it, when Snape fixed him up.
> 
Carol responds:
I agree that the four chapters take place on the same night. And Snape
*has* already saved DD from the ring curse. He tells Bellatrix, ". . .
Dumbledore is growing old. The duel with the Dark Lord last month
shook him. He has since sustained a serious injury because his
reactions are slower than they once were" (31).

Note that slowed reactions are not the reason that DD sustained the
injury though DD lets Slughorn think the same thing. In fact, he lets
the whole school see the injured hand, as if he wants to create the
impression that he's weaker than he once was. There's no indication
that the duel with the Dark Lord "shook" DD. That's Snape's excuse to
Bella and Narcissa and presumably LV for DD's injury. He certainly
isn't going to tell any of them that he saved DD's life, much less
that the injury is from a cursed Horcrux (as Snape surely knows or has
deduced).

But, anyway, Snape has definitely saved DD from the curse, without
being able to save the hand itself, before the conversation at
"Spinner's End." And I'm pretty sure that both Snape and DD know that
Snape will become the DADA teacher if and when Slughorn accepts the
Potions position. It's all part of the plan necessitated by LV's rise
to power and the end of the Prophecy diversion. It's time to start
hunting Horcruxes and give Harry lessons, time to send Snape to
Voldemort at the end of the year, time to give him a chance to show
his stuff as a DADA teacher and anti-Dark Arts expert, time to hire a
new Potions master and future HoH of Slytherin House to replace Snape
at the end of the year when the DADA curse inevitably strikes. And
there's the whole complication of Draco being assigned to kill DD and
whatever that entails for Snape's and Dumbledore's plans. Dumbledore
must know that between the ring Horcrux, whatever other Horcruxes
he'll encounter during the year, Draco's assignment to kill him, and
Voldemort's determination to rid himself of "the only one he ever
feared" as the sole obstacle between himself and Harry, that he can't
last till the end of the year. The UV, to him, is just one more
complication entangling Snape in Dumbledore's fate.

The fact that DD is placing his valuable spy Snape in the cursed DADA
position after keeping him out of it all these years, even allowing
Umbridge to teach at Hogwarts to keep Snape from leaving prematurely
(what other reason could he have had to choose Umbridge over Snape,
whom he knows to be well-qualified for the post?), and that DD visits
the Dursleys, giving them the secret of the Order headquarters, and is
finally teaching Harry about LV and Horcruxes, surely indicates that
DD knows his time is short.

Ceridwen:
> When Snape agrees to take the UV, Narcissa has only iterated two 
> points, neither of which has anything to do with killing Dumbledore 
> except in the most remote way.

Carol:
Exactly. His motive in agreeing to the vow in the first place is
surely to protect Draco, whom he, like Narcissa, expects to fail in
his mission, at all costs.

Ceridwen:
> <snip>  Snape agrees to the first two clauses before joining hands
with Narcissa.  IF the UV is binding from that point on, then 
Narcissa played a dirty trick on Snape by throwing in that last 
clause.  He could not have gotten out of it at that point, IF the UV 
takes charge from the joining of hands onward.  A mother afraid for 
her son's life would understandably do whatever it takes to save her
son, so I can completely see Sneaky!Narcissa's reasoning here.  But 
she played Snape unfairly after invoking such long-term friendship,
being Draco's favorite teacher, and so on.

Carol:
That's how I see it as well. But even if the vow isn't binding from
the moment the ropes of fire bind Snape to Narcissa, she's being
sneaky. He wasn't agreeing to that third provision when he agreed to
take the vow. He was agreeing to protect Draco, and to risk his own
life by doing so. The third provision was not part of the bargain, and
the twitch shows that Snape did not anticipate it. (Maybe Narcissa
didnt, either. It could have been a last-minute inspiration.)

Ceridwen:
> With Dumbledore's original injury, which was not healing; with 
Dumbledore's behavior seeming to mean he thinks his time is short; 
with the potion that he drank making him so weak he passes out a 
couple of times before even reaching the Tower, and making him 
turning paler as the minutes ticked by, and making him so weak that 
he's sliding down as he's talking to Draco; with the presence of the 
other DE's, including or in addition to Fenrir Greyback; with Harry 
frozen to the castle wall under his Invisibility Cloak, since Harry 
is the only person in the war who is not expendable, then whether 
Snape took a UV to protect Draco or not, the only thing he could have
done to save *Harry* (not even worried about Draco here, since we're
shoving the UV aside), may have been to kill DD to convince the DEs to
leave before Harry came out fighting.
> 
> A DDM!Snape would need Harry to live. <snip>

Carol responds:
I agree with this reasoning. However, the UV makes the need for Snape
to act, and act quickly, more urgent and compelling. If Snape dies
from breaking the vow, everything is lost, not just Draco's life and
Snape's mission to LV. Harry will rush out and be killed, ensuring
Voldemort's victory. The Death Eaters will run rampant in Hogwarts,
killing, torturing, destroying. (They've already smashed the
Gryffindor hourglass and later one of them burns Hagrid's hut, mere
hints of what they would do if there was no Snape to order them off
the grounds, no Harry to defeat Voldemort in the future.) We've seen
what Fenrir Greyback can do and we know that he loves killing
children. The prospect is too horrible to consider.

So I agree that Snape would have had no choice but to do what he did
once he reached the tower even if it weren't for the UV, but the UV
controls his reaction to Flitwick's plea for help and prevents him
from joining the Order in fighting the DEs because he's bound by the
UV to protect Draco. He doesn't know what he'll find when he rushes up
the stairs to the tower, certainly not a helpless, disarmed, and
apparently dying Dumbledore, but he must have known that the UV was in
grave danger of being triggered, that he had to be with Dumbledore and
Draco rather than with the Order to do whatever DD wanted him to do.

To that extent, the UV controls Snape's actions once he's been
alerted, and, IMO, it makes him a tragic figure, the victim of his own
mistake or mistakes. The private hell he's experiencing in "Flight of
the Prince" is surely in part a consequence of the UV--he know, or
thinks he knows, that if he hadn't agreed to it, he might not have had
to murder his mentor. I'm quite sure that if his death could have
saved Dumbledore or the boys, he would have happily broken the vow.
Unfortunately, Dumbledore could not be saved, and keeping the vow by
killing him was the only way to save the boys and, by protecting
Harry, make the ultimate defeat of Voldemort possible.

Carol, still hoping that Snape isn't doomed but realizing that tragic
flaws are usually fatal