Hermione and 'Evil is a strong word' (WAS Re: CHAPDISC: HBP30, The White Tomb)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165819

zgirnius wrote:
> > I could see her making the objection to the word 'evil' if she had
started to have some doubt creep in as to whether Snape is indeed *as*
evil as Harry painted him. (Harry painted a picture of someone whose
every action was evil: he set up the Potters deliberately,
>
> a_svirn:
> Well, he did. The Potters and the Longbottoms. He did know that the
> people he was exposing to Voldemort were these two couples, but what
> does it matter? He knew only too well what they were in for.

Carol responds:
Dumbledore says that Snape had no way of knowing who the people in the
Prophecy were, and that statement has to be true for the simple reason
that neither Harry nor Neville had been born yet. It's hard to tell
exactly when the Prophecy took place, but given the weather (a cold
wet night), it was probably autumn, winter, or spring--certainly
nowhere near the end of the seventh month. Given Trelawney's
description of the length of time she'd been teaching when Umbridge
questioned her (not quite sixteen years), late autumn seems most
likely. (I think it was Halloween night, the probable night of Harry's
conception, but I can't prove it.)

Not only did young Snape have no way of knowing that the Prophecy
referred to people he knew, he had no way of knowing how Voldemort
would interpret it, as Dumbledore also states. IOW, he had no way of
knowing that Voldemort would try to kill the child before he revealed
himself as "the one with the power." Dumbledore says that this
revelation, the way that Voldemort interpreted the Prophecy, was the
reason that young Snape came to him, the reason for his remorse. He
clearly did *not* know "what they were in for." If he did, why feel
remorse? Why go to Dumbledore? Why not just let them all die,
especially the hated James?
>
zgirnius (listing Harry's accusations against Snape, not her own views):
> he got them killed,
>
> a_svirn:
> He did. He can't get all the credit, naturally, but a substantial
> part of it, certainly.

Carol:
It was Voldemort who killed the Potters and Wormtail who betrayed
them. The revelation of the Prophecy to Voldemort wouldn't have
mattered if the Fidelius Charm had worked, if the Secret Keeper hadn't
betrayed the trust that had been placed in him. Snape's rage in the
Shrieking Shack indicates that he believed that James's "arrogance" in
trusting Sirius Black over Dumbledore led to his death. If it hadn't
been for Snape's revealing Voldemort's intention to kill the Potters
(or at least Harry) to Dumbledore, Dumbledore wouldn't have suggested
the Fidelius Charm in the first place, and if the Potters had accepted
DD's offer to be Secret Keeper, they wouldn't be dead.

The evidence suggests that Snape was trying to *prevent* their deaths
but failed (which is part of the reason that he still hates James,
IMO. How dare he not listen and get himself killed? The arrogance of
it!) He does, however, IMO, try to shift part of his own guilt onto
Sirius Black until PoA, which is why he really doesn't want to hear
anything that would exonerate Sirius. He's believed for too long that
Sirius, who lured him into a tunnel with a werewolf at sixteen,
deserved that sentence to Azkaban.
>
zgirnius (again listing the charges against Snape):
> he went to Dumbledore and lied,
>
> a_svirn:
> Looks like it, doesn't it? What other explanation can she possibly
have?

Carol:
It may indeed look like it, but only to Harry, not Hermione, who will
realize, I hope, that Harry's version of events conflicts with what
she already knows--that Snape began spying for Dumbledore *before*
Godric's Hollow (and presumably before he began teaching that same
year). That being the case, the Potters' deaths *can't* be the reason
for Snape's tale of remorse. His remorse, and his return to
Dumbledore, has to have occurred some time between the Prophecy and
Godric's Hollow, not afterwards. (It's a shame that the timeline is so
vague, to Harry and Hermione even more than to us.)
>
a_svirn:
She knows that Snape made a vow to help Draco in his mission, and she
knows what the nature of that mission was. Genuinely repentant persons
are not supposed to plot against their benefactors. <snip>

Carol:
No, she doesn't. She knows that Snape made a UV to *protect Draco*,
but she has already suggested (as did Lupin and Mr. Weasley) that
Snape is trying to "help" Draco by finding out what he's up to. Which
is exactly what he *is* doing--along with putting Crabbe and Goyle in
detention. Hardly helping Draco fix the Vanishing Cabinet, which Snape
knows no more about than Harry does at this point, or helping him kill
Dumbledore. Instead he's discouraging amateurish tactics like the
cursed necklace (and the poisoned mead that he doesn't know about and
is too late to prevent from being sold to Slughorn). Hermione's
initial reaction to Harry's report of the conversation between Snape
and Draco is the correct one, IMO, and I don't think she'll change her
mind.

Let's look at the conversation in a little more detail.

"'Listen to me,' said Snape . . . . 'I am trying to help you. I swore
to your mother I would protect you. I made the Unbreakable Vow, Draco--'

"'Looks like you'll have to break it, then, because I don't need your
protection! It's my job, he gave it to me and I'm doing it, I've got a
plan and it's going to work, it's just taking a bit longer than I
thought it would!'

"'What is your plan?'

"'It's none of your business!' (HBP Am. ed. 323).

Granted, Snape does say that if Draco tells him his plan, he can
assist him, but he's not compelled to do so by the vow, which only
requires him to watch over and protect Draco and "do the deed" (the
"job," not the "plan") if it seems that Draco will fail. (We've
already seen that his idea of helping Draco is finding out what he's
up to and hindering him if possible. (The last thing DDM!Snape wants
is for Draco to be in a position to unwittingly trigger the third
provision of the Unbreakable Vow.) Meantime, Snape is extracting what
information he can from Draco (that he has other helpers, that he's
learned Occlumency, presumably from Bellatrix, that he has a plan);
he's discouraging him from dangerous tactics like the cursed necklace;
he's telling Draco that he's already suspected of involvement with the
necklace but not saying by whom (obviously, Snape himself and DD); and
he's putting Draco's known assistants, Crabbe and Goyle, in detention.
Harry hears all of this and concludes that Snape is helping Draco with
the job he's been assigned by his master. (Snape says "*your* master,"
not "*our* master," and Harry actually notes that wording to Hermione,
p. 353, but doesn't register its significance. Neither, of course,
does Draco. Hermione thinks it might refer to Draco's father, but if
she thinks about the conversation later, she should realize that it
refers to Voldemort--*Draco's* master, but not Snape's).

Mr. Weasley's reaction to the whole story is, "Has it occurred to you,
Harry, that Snape was simply pretending [to offer help]?" to which
Harry replies, "Yeah, I thought you'd say that. But how do we know?"
and Lupin supports Mr. Weasley by saying, "It's not our business to
know. It's Dumbledore's business. Dumbledore trusts Snape, and that
ought to be good enough for all of us" (HBP 332).

Hermione's reaction is identical to Mr. Weasley's:

"Don't you think--'

"'--he was pretending to offer help so that he could trick Malfoy into
telling him what he's doing?'

"'Well, yes,' said Hermione.

Hermione concedes that *Draco* is up to something (though not
necessarily for Voldemort). She fails to pick up on the "your master"
clue, and the conversation gets sidetracked onto Lupin. But I can
imagine Hermione coming back to the conversation and discussing it
with Lupin or Mr. Weasley, whose reactions Harry has told her
resembled hers. (And BTW, three reasonable people arriving at the same
conclusion regarding Snape ought to be a hint to the reader, at least,
that perhaps they're right about Snape, as Harry is right about Draco.)

zgirnius:
> The whole Potters story is shaky. Hermione knows how vague the
Prophecy was - could Snape really set them up.
> > She knows Dumbledore trusted Snape before the Potters died (that
is why I brought up GoF, not the 'personal risk' bit).
>
> a_svirn:
> Actually, the only "shaky" part is that it was the reason for
Dumbledore's trust in Snape. But she has no alternative explanation
for that trust anyway.

Carol:
I agree that the whole Potters story as Harry gives it is shaky. And
zgirnius' point that Hermione *knows* DD trusted Snape before the
Potters died is crucial. *Someone* has to figure out that Harry's
version of events (the tale of remorse coming after the Potters'
deaths) doesn't jibe with what they already know--he turned spy for
Dumbledore before Voldemort's fall. If Hermione can't see the
inconsistency, then her capacity for logic (first demonstrated with
Snape's riddle in SS/PS and shown again when she deduces that the
vision of Sirius Black in the MoM has to be fake) has failed her--and us.

As for having no alternative explanation for Dumbledore's trust in
Snape, she can at least deduce that he *had* a reason--*before*
Godric's Hollow--and it isn't the reason that Harry gives.
>
a_svirn:
> But that's not the case as far as Snape is concerned. He is not an
essentially good man who suddenly fell from grace through a moment's
weakness. He is an extremely unpleasant man with a murky past, and the
only reason why he was tolerated in the order was that inexplicable
Dumbledore's trust. <snip>
> And look how the adults changed their tune! Lupin who had assured
Harry that he neither liked nor disliked Snape suddenly remembered
what a good occlumence he is. And he absolutely scorned the idea Snape
might have repented his actions, <snip>

> It seems that Hermione is the only one who doubts Snape's evilness.

Carol:
First, we've seen reactions very like these before, not only in the
readiness of the Little Hangletonians to believe Frank Bryce capable
of murder and the willingness of the whole WW to believe Sirius Black
to have betrayed his best friens to their deaths followed by the
murder of thirteen people, but of a similar belief on the part of the
Hufflepuffs that Harry was the Heir of Slytherin based on the
Serpensortia incident. So, based on Harry's story, most of the adults,
and especially Lupin, seize on the idea that DD was wrong to trust
Snape. But Slughorn's reaction ("I taught him. I thought I knew him")
is rather different. He trusted Snape as Snape, not because Dumbledore
did. And Hagrid repeatedly defends Snape until he actually sees the
body, and even then doesn't speak against him. He only weeps for
Dumbledore.

Hermione's reaction is similar to McGonagall's at first ("Oh, Harry. I
was so stupid!"). Consequently, it's *very* interesting that she
doesn't seem to maintain that attitude. She defends the HBP, whom
she's been criticizing all year, as something less than "evil" (even
given Sectumsempra, an undeniably Dark spell that he apparently
invented at sixteen). She hesitates to call Snape a murderer and even
does a bit of research to determine how he came up with the name
"Half-Blood Prince." It's almost as though Hermione can trust the
Prince, at least with regard to Potions, now that she knows who he is
(it's okay that his potions hints aren't Ministry-approved; she knows
that he's a potions genius and has herself benefited from his
expertise). And she seems to have some sort of sympathy or empathy for
him that she didn't have when he was an unknown student with a "nasty"
sense of humor.

The only way I can account for Hermione's changed attitude is to
conclude that she's been thinking about Harry's story, noting the gaps
and inconsistencies, and thinking about the Snape she knows--the
sarcastic teacher whom she *knows* to have acted courageously in
support of Dumbledore and to protect Harry--in contrast to the unknown
Snape who would murder Dumbledore to "steal [Draco's] glory" or
support the Dark Lord he's been opposing all this time. I think she's
concluded, as so many of us have done, that there must be more to
Snape's story, more to Dumbledore's trust in him, than has yet been
revealed.

Carol, counting on Hermione to use her brain to figure out what Harry
doesn't want to see