ChapDisc: HBP30, The White Tomb - What if...???

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 165844

---  "quick_silver71" <quick_silver71 at ...> wrote:
>
> ---  "Steve" <bboyminn@> wrote:
> <snip>
> > bboyminn:
> <snip>
> > Now back to Dumbledore; what if Dumbledore was already
> > dead when Snape threw the Killing Curse? That would
> > explain the unusual response. ...
> > 
> > Indeed as Carol points out, that might lead Lupin to
> > conclude the only way that could happen was if 
> > Dumbledore was already dead. ...
> 
> Quick_Silver:
> I actually think this is a really neat idea and could
> actually work but I have to say that I feel there's 
> no...set-up...to it. Harry doesn't notice Snape 
> stalling, or taking long then normal to do the 
> deed, and Snape eyes, ....

bboyminn:

There is no need for a set-up, which I think is actually
there, nor for hestiation because Draco and Dumbledore
did all the hestiating. By that I mean, as Dumbledore
and Draco talk, Dumbledore grows weaker and weaker,
gradually sliding down the wall and, to some extent,
collapsing on the floor. So Dumbledore is pretty far
gone, actually, completely helpless by the time Snape
arrives. 

"In the dim glow from the Mark, Harry saw Dumbledore,
clutching at his chest with he blackened hand."

"Standing against the ramparts, very white in the face,
Dumbledore..."

" ...Dumbledore slid a little down the rampart, the
strength in his legs apparently fading, ..."

"aaaah..." "Dumbledore closed his eyes again and nodded,
as though he was about to fall asleep...."

"His (Dumbledore's) voice was light and conversational,
but Harry saw him slip an inch lewer down the wall as he 
said it."

"...Harry saw his (Dumbledore's) feet slide a little on 
the floor as he struggled to remain upright."

"He (Draco) looked terrified as he stared into Dumbledore's
face, which was even paler, and rather lower than usual,
as he had slid so far down the rampart wall."

So, the point is that Dumbledore is fading fast. However,
when Snape finally arrives, things happen pretty fast, 
and I will grant you at this point, that there doesn't
seem to be a pause for Dumbledore's final collapse.

"...and there stood Snape, his wand clutched in his
hand as his black eyes swept the scene, from Dumbledore's
slumped against the wall, ....and Malfoy."

"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was
revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of is
face."

"Severus...please..."

"Snape raised his wand and pointed it directly at
Dumbledore."

"Avada Kedavra1"  

"A jet of GREEN light shot from the end of Snape's
wand ... Dumbledore was blasted into the air. ...
seemed to hang suspended ...the he fell slowly 
backward...."

Now, I admit my theory is slightly weak give the
information we have, but on the other hand, JKR
wouldn't want to give too much away. It is clear that
Dumbledore is fading fast. I speculate Snape's 
'revulsion and hatred' are not against Dumbledore,
but for the position Snape has been forced into. In 
doing this Snape is dooming himself in the public
mind forever. That is also why he chastises Harry for
calling him a coward, when just moments before he
has done the bravest and most self-destrutive thing
he has ever done in his life. 

> Quick_Silver:
> 
> My entire view of Draco is different because Harry 
> noticed his wand drop a fraction, why not have Snape 
> hesitate for a fraction of second? 
> 
> > bboyminn:
> > Now, we have a reason for Harry to come to his 
> > clandestine meeting with Snape, ...
> 
> Quick_Silver:
> My own personal (and unlikely) theory is that the seed
> of doubt about Snape will be planted in Harry's mind 
> by Draco...who of course will be spying for Harry on 
> Snape and Voldemort. Draco will realize that there was 
> in fact someone else on the Tower that saw his hesitation 
> and deduce that it was Harry. 
> 
> Quick_Silver
>

bboyminn:

But Draco presents the same problem as Snape. While 
Harry may have realized that Draco couldn't kill 
Dumbledore, Draco, none the less, caused Dumbledore's 
death. He is guilty of conspiracy to commit murder or 
accessory to murder. In the eyes of the law, Draco is 
just a guilty as Snape. So how can Harry reconcile with
Draco? What could possibly happen to bring them together
on the same side?

If Draco contacts Harry, why would Harry even remotely
trust him. How could he possibly dare met with Draco
when Draco has caused Dumbledore's death and caused the
injuries to Harry friends, and is now working with the
Death Eaters? 

I don't see how Draco could bring Snape into Harry's
camp, but I do see how Snape could bring Draco in. If
it turns out that Dumbledore was already dead when
Snape 'killed' him.

I am convinced that in the end, Snape, and probably
Draco, will turn out to work for the good side. The
questions is what circumstance could occur to allow
that to happen. As things stand, Harry is dead set 
against both Snape and Draco. He wouldn't trust 
either one any father than he could throw Grawp. So,
something has to happen, new information must become
available to make Harry accept their help. But what?
What could that 'thing' be? The only thing I can come
up with the fills the bill is Dumbledore was already
dead.

---  "teranyoli" <yoliteran at ...> wrote:
>
> --I think Dumbledore is not dead it was all planned by
> him to fake his death so Voldemort would believe it. 
> ...

bboyminn:

Just one problem, JKR has stated pretty emphatically
that Dumbledore is dead and he is not coming back.
Certainly we will see some aspect of him in the story,
but Dumbledore himself is going to the great beyond.

I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying I have yet
to hear a better explanation.

Steve/bboyminn