Hermione and 'Evil is a strong word' (WAS Re: CHAPDISC: HBP30, The White Tomb)

[a_svirn]

No: HPFGUIDX 165893

a_svirn:
>That's just it I don't see why she would hesitate to call him thus.
>He *is* a murderer, after all, even if he killed for "the Greater
>Good" (not that I believe that such thing exists, but for the sake of
>argument.)

Bart:
Just to set a context: Do you think soldier/snipers in times of war 
are
murderers? Say, if they take out the radioman? If someone is carrying 
secret
information, and is about to be captured, and another soldier is 
assigned to
kill him if he gets captured. The first soldier does get captured, 
and the
second soldier, following orders to which both soldiers agreed, kills 
him. Is
the second soldier a murderer?

a_svirn:
Frankly, I'd rather not to go there. It would only lead to a 
discussion on whether wars are fought for the Greater Good or for 
some other goods, which would be decidedly OT. And anyway, your 
example doesn't work for Snape, does it? It's not like Snape killed 
his enemy in a battle. He killed his ally and his commander-in-chief 
in an ambush. 


Carol:
The evidence suggests that Snape was trying to *prevent* their deaths
but failed (which is part of the reason that he still hates James,
IMO. How dare he not listen and get himself killed? The arrogance of
it!)

a_svirn:
Only someone really twisted and perverse can hate a man for such a 
reason. And from "twisted and perverse" to murderer 
 and even to 
evil
 not such a long stretch. To anyone in the order it is much 
easier to believe that Snape is low life, than to try to explain away 
the murder of their leader. 

Besides what evidence? We have only Dumbledore's word on 
the "personal risks" Snape took in the first war, and, frankly, in 
the light of the events on the tower, the phoenixes would be 
justified in thinking that he had been hoodwinked by Snape. 

Carol:
It may indeed look like it, but only to Harry, not Hermione, who will
realize, I hope, that Harry's version of events conflicts with what
she already knows--that Snape began spying for Dumbledore *before*
Godric's Hollow (and presumably before he began teaching that same
year). That being the case, the Potters' deaths *can't* be the reason
for Snape's tale of remorse. His remorse, and his return to
Dumbledore, has to have occurred some time between the Prophecy and
Godric's Hollow, not afterwards. (It's a shame that the timeline is so
vague, to Harry and Hermione even more than to us.)

a_svirn:
That's true. She must have seen that the explanation doesn't hold 
water. But she has no other, and at this point it has been borne upon 
the entire order of the Phoenix that Dumbledore must have been 
mistaken in Snape. 


Carol:
No, she doesn't. She knows that Snape made a UV to *protect Draco*, 
<snip all the quotes>

a_svirn:
not just protect, but *help* as well. 

> a_svirn:
> But that's not the case as far as Snape is concerned. He is not an
> essentially good man who suddenly fell from grace through a moment's
> weakness. He is an extremely unpleasant man with a murky past, and
> the only reason why he was tolerated in the order was that
> inexplicable Dumbledore's trust.

zgirnius:
This is your opinion. I do not share it, and I do not see why
Hermione must. Hermione is aware of the following good actions of
Snape, which have occured over the past six years:

1) Saving Harry from Quirrell in PS/SS
2) End of PoA - I think she would believe him sincere in his comments
to her and Harry in the Shack - in other words, he was after Sirius
because he was the traitor
3) Revealing his Dark Mark to Fudge
4) Teaching Harry Occlumency (I think she did read up on it, and has
reason to believe Harry's reaction is typical in the early stages)
5) Not providing Umbridge with Veritaserum in OotP
6) Sending the Order to the MoM (and checking on Sirius)
7) Saving Dumbledore's life
8) Saving Katie Bell's life


a_svirn:
To start with, out of your list only the first point is undisputable. 
The rest of your points has been challenged on-list over the years. 
(And the seventh is certainly negated by his actions later on). More 
importantly, it is not why Hermione had been defending Snape in the 
past. Every time Harry started on Snape, his doubtful loyalties and 
murky past what did she say to him?  Come on, Harry, Dumbledore 
trusts him, and Dumbledore knows best. But now this argument is no 
longer valid, is it? Dumbledore has been proved wrong.