ChapDisc: HBP30, The White Tomb - What if...???

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165931


Carol earlier:
> > Right. Dumbledore is dead. That, unfortunately, is indisputable.
As far as an alternate spell disguised as an is concerned, its sole
purpose would be to let Dumbledore die from the poison (or the
"unstoppered" ring curse, according to some theories). That way Snape
would not be guilty of murder, ...
> 
> bboyminn:
> 
> Just requesting a clarification on this point. Are
> you saying that Snape cast /some/ curse against 
> Dumbledore that threw an alive but fading Dumbledore 
> off the tower, and we will assume gave him a soft 
> landing, so that Dumbledore coud die quietly on his 
> way down?
> 
> The key here being that Dumbledore die on the way down
> of either natural or previous causes rather than died
> by Snape's curse or the landing.
> 
> Just checking. 

Carol responds:
That's what I'm proposing as a *possibility*, yes. It's even possible,
in this hypothesis, that DD died *after* the soft landing. Not long
after, of course, because Harry was released from the Freezing Charm
and the UV didn't kill Snape. But the point is, doing that would have
allowed Snape to get DD off the tower so that he could die from
whatever poison was clearly killing him, away from the DEs (especially
Greyback), save Draco and Harry, and get the DEs out of Hogwarts.

A second *possibility,* having another spell or spells *combined with*
an AK, accomplishes all the same objectives but leaves Snape guilty of
murder. That version is easier to reconcile with the UV but not with
the Freezing Charm, where we have to rely, as we do with your theory,
on Harry's state of mind keeping him frozen long enough for Snape to
get the DEs off the tower (Brutal-Face was just running out the door
as Harry threw off the Invisibility Cloak and zapped him in the back
with a Petrificus Totalus. All the others, including Greyback, were on
their way down the stairs and out of range.) This second version makes
him a more tragic figure but also makes the understanding between him
and Harry more difficult to arrive at.

Either way, in my view, Snape did what he had to do and what
Dumbledore wanted him to do at terrible cost to himself. And either
way, I'm certain that he *deliberately* sent DD off the tower to keep
Greyback away from him. Had DD's body remained on the tower, the
objectives I listed would have been impossible to achieve. Use your
imagination. Greyback rushes to the body to ravage it (look at his
words on the tower). Snape grabs Draco and tries to run out with him,
but Harry, released from the Freezing Charm, throws off his
Invisibility Cloak and attacks Snape. Mayhem ensues, with Snape forced
to protect the boys and blow his cover or let them be killed or taken
as prisoners to the Dark Lord and break the protection clause of his
vow in the process. The likelihood of any of the three surviving is
slim. *Dumbledore's body had to go over the wall, and I think that
Snape did it on purpose to achieve his objectives.*

Now, I would happily sacrifice Snape-as-tragic-figure and make him
into Snape-as-*apparent*-murderer, which the first version
accomplishes. It's like allowing a cancer patient to go off his
medication and die naturally from the cancer. In this case, the poison
was killing DD but Snape couldn't let DD die *on the tower* for the
reasons I've explained. If he's going to die, he had better do it, but
offstage so Greyback can't get him and start the mayhem.

I realize that your version would also make Snape not guilty of
murder, but I don't see a shred of evidence that he was already dead.
I know you think that Dumbledore's body behaved like an inanimate
object, but wouldn't it have blown up like Voldemort's at GH if he
were already dead? And where is the interval between "Severus, please"
and his death? Yes, Snape hesitates, allowing time for the exchanged
glance and making "Severus, please" necessary, but there's no time
between "Severus, please" and the raised wand and the spell itself for
him to die, no moment when his expression changes or he slumps down
dead. He's still sliding down the wall. (Is he looking at Snape or
does he close his eyes before the spell hits? The narrator, seeing
Snape as traitor/murderer through Harry's eyes, doesn't tell us.)
> 
> If Snape is guilty of some form of murder, then it makes it
extremely difficult for he and Harry to work together as I am
convinced the must do before the end of the book. So, if there is some
way that Snape could have only /appeared/ to murder Dumbledore, and if
somehow Lupin and Hermione can determine this independantly, then
perhaps Harry would be open to at least hearing Snape out.

Carol:
Yes, I know. That's the advantage of the first version of this
hypothesis, that Dumbledore died from the poison after he was blasted
off the tower and floated down. All that's needed is a green-lit spell
that could pass for the AK that the DEs and Harry were expecting Snape
to cast. The second version has the advantage of being more probable
and fitting better with the UV but does make the understanding with
Harry difficult. (If, however, Harry could be made to understand why
Snape acted as he did, he would be a model of compassion, a perfect
hero in terms of understanding how Voldemort has ruined *Snape's* life
as well as those of the Longbottoms and so many others. He did, after
all, have compassion for Barty Crouch Sr. for sentencing his own son
to Azkaban, a good sign, I think.) 

What I'm waiting for with regard to your hypothesis is solid evidence,
other than the action of a spell on an inanimate object, which I "get"
but don't find convincing in and of itself.

How and why could he have been "already dead" and yet say the words
"Severus, please?" Or if he died after he spoke those words, where is
the interval in which to do it and the evidence that he did?
> 
bbpyminn:
> My opinion is that Draco will come to the good side through Snape.
That is Harry's struggle will be between himself and Snape. Draco's
stuggle will also be between himself and Snape. Once Snape and Harry
resolve, that opens the door for Draco to come in. But both these
strike me as huge problems to overcome. It's going to be interesting.
<snip>

Carol:
Here I agree with you completely.
 
> You have refined your claim to 'a normal AK to the extent that we
are able to determine'. That seems reasonable, as long as you are
doing your best to include everything that might help us determine and
not just what serves you. <snip>

Carol:
Now, Steve. What a thing to say! As I said, I'm just stating
possibilities, presenting the canon for them, conceding their weak
points, pointing out weaknesses in your position, conceding its
strengths, and noting points of agreement. I don't think I'm right in
anything except the strangeness of the AK and the necessity for DD to
go over the ramparts. (JKR could have let him die like Cedric. Why
didn't she? Because Snape could never have gotten the DEs and Draco
and Harry off the tower had she done so. Just my opinion, but I'd like
to see another explanation that fits the bill as well.)

Carol, wondering how a person postulating two possible hypotheses (I'm
not even calling them theories) without actually arguing for either
one could possibly be excluding evidence and doing what serves her