[HPforGrownups] Why DD did not ask Snape to kill him. (extremely long)

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165932

Dana:
 Did Snape have a death wish and he was planning to die if DD had not asked 
him to kill him and save his own life? So the lines of hate in Snape's face 
are there because Snape hates himself for not dying -- is that what all 
Snape fans want me to believe? Because hating himself only because DD now 
expects Snape to kill him makes no sense to me if LV expects him to do it as 
well, or if he keels over for not doing it when the UV comes into effect. At 
least for me, there is no logic to it. Why not? Because all of them 
(DD/LV/UV) give him the same option. Do it or die. DD's orders are totally 
irrelevant to the outcome under these circumstances, unless I am to believe 
that Snape had rather died and had planned to do so. In that case of course 
he could hate himself for being so stupid to be left with so few options, 
but it doesn't sound logical to me that it would be only DD's request that 
would install this self-hatred in Snape. Unless of course Snape really did 
show hate for DD at that moment -- after all Snape does have a nasty 
tendency to blame everybody else for letting himself get into more than he 
can handle -- but more on that later.

Magpie:
I also have no illusions about knowing what will happen, and I have no idea 
what DD asked or didn't ask Snape to do when and for what! But I can answer 
this idea by saying that yes, Snape could have had a death wish. The idea, 
for some, is that Snape planned to die rather than fulfill the vow if 
necessary and Dumbledore asked him not to do that.

Dumbledore, if he asked Snape to kill him at some point, was never saying 
"do it or die" but "do it because it is for the greater good and will get us 
closer to killing Voldemort." So the hatred on Snape's face is hatred at 
what he has to do, which is not what he wanted to do.

Of course I can't explain the real circumstances or why Snape took the Vow 
or why Dumbledore asked him to do this. I can't imagine he literally had a 
plan that involved Snape killing him--in an emergency situation yes, maybe, 
but not as Plan A. But I do see a big difference between LV asking Snape to 
kill DD and DD asking him to do it for the greater good.

Dana:
Okay the second argument of many Snape fans is that Snape is doing this on 
DD's order to save Draco from becoming a murderer. This necessitates the 
question; DD's death is serving Draco how? The boy can't come back to school 
for his implications in attempted murder of Kathy, Ron (even if they were 
not the targets) and Dumbledore, Imperio Madam Rosemerta, and letting DE's 
into the castle.  He can be sent to Azkaban for his involvement in this if 
the MoM ever catches him, and oh my he is still at LV's mercy and with only 
Snape, who is now known as a murder, to vouch for him -- and this is helping 
Draco, how? And just because Harry showed him some pity doesn't mean Draco 
can now consider himself saved; maybe Harry can do something for him at the 
end of book 7 (if both of them life that long), but at this moment Draco is 
still in the same trouble, maybe even more than before DD's death. (so if 
this was DD plan than it seems like a really poor one) Let's hope LV will 
let the boy live now that he showed himself too weak for his cause and 
disobeyed a direct order even if Snape saved the day on assumed orders, 
because if LV did not mean for Snape to do it in the end as he suggested (by 
*thinking* it is what LV wants him to do) in the beginning of the book, then 
Snape himself has a lot of explaining to do, and it might not be enough to 
protect Draco at the same time. Maybe Draco will be given a second chance 
(because LV is in such a good mood now DD is gone), and LV will find someone 
else for him to kill. Let see if Snape is still bound to the UV this time 
and do it for Draco again and again and again.

Magpie:
Snape did not keep Draco from being a murderer. Only Draco could keep Draco 
from being a murderer and he did that by not killing Dumbledore. That seemed 
important to Dumbledore throughout the year, that Draco realize that about 
himself. Snape, if he was helping Draco on the Tower, was helping him stay 
alive by killing Dumbledore in his place, perhaps, now that Draco wasn't a 
killer.

Again, I can't see Dumbledore having a plan that involved Snape murdering 
him simply for Draco--not Plan A. But I think that protecting Draco as one 
of his students and perhaps giving him a chance to make better decisions 
about his life would definitely be important to Dumbledore, just as it was 
important to him that Snape see the error of his ways all those years ago.

DD's offer to Draco (which I don't think is really different in the US and 
UK versions, Dumbledore just makes it more explicit how his family is going 
to be protected in one version) does not involve DD's death--obviously not, 
because once DD is dead Draco can't take the offer. So his original plan 
couldn't have involved Snape killing him. Snape might have understood that 
in this situation Dumbledore would want him to kill him, perhaps, because it 
was the best of many bad choices, but that wouldn't make it Dumbledore's 
original intention to have Snape murder him.

Dumbledore's original plan could never have been for Snape to deliver Draco 
back to LV. He never intended Draco to go back to LV's clutches. Nor did he 
want Snape to break his vow and so die either, as I understand it.

Dana:
At least it doesn't seem like DD has the same plan as Snape fans say he does 
if he ordered to have Snape kill him because he is more valuable alive (and 
in LV's camp), because if Draco had taken the offer it would be bye bye 
Snape. Even if the UV would not be broken Snape would still have to face LV 
and you can bet your *ss that Bella would bring Snape's head on a silver 
platter for having her sister and her nephew killed (as no one will tell her 
about it, she is to loyal to LV and if to many people know then there is too 
much risk for this plan to fail), and not finishing the job and it would 
have been the end of the plan.

Magpie:
Why would Bella be able to complain to LV about Snape getting her nephew and 
sister killed?  LV *wanted* Draco killed. That was his plan. If Dumbledore 
had lived and LV believed Draco to have died in the attempt, that would be 
fine with LV. That's what was supposed to have happened. If LV believed the 
other side also went after Narcissa so much the better. Bella's got nothing 
to complain about to LV-to do so would be to be complaining about his own 
plan.

Dana:
Oh, but there is more of course, because Snape fans will say DD asked this 
of Snape because Snape is more important to Harry alive. How? So he can tell 
Harry what LV is going to do next? Or any of the members of the Order? Are 
they really going to listen to what he has to say? It was DD who trusted 
him, but he never explained to anyone why. I think it is a little too much 
to ask of anyone to still keep this in mind when the same person just killed 
the one who trusted him.

Magpie:
I've no idea how this would work--but it still doesn't seem strange to me 
that Dumbledore might think Snape was more valuable alive. Remember, you 
started out by pointing out that we're supposedly going to be surprised by 
how Book 7 turns out. So just as we can't assume we know what Dumbledore was 
doing in protecting Snape, we can't yet say protecting Snape was a bad idea.

Dana:
By the way -- without the UV Snape could just go to LV and tell him he 
doesn't want to pretend he is working for DD anymore and that he wants to 
come out and be a proud DE.  This does not require a dead DD -- according to 
Spinner's End, LV already trusts Snape so he doesn't have to be convinced in 
this fashion, and Bella is essentially nobody, so why do anything that would 
risk the entire operation or a plan B for that matter and take an UV?  How 
again does this serve Harry or even Draco?

Magpie:
No clue--but I don't think this idea, that Snape is killing DD to make 
himself seem loyal to LV, is necessary for the "DD wanted Snape to kill him" 
idea. That's just one possible explanation people have come up with--one 
that I, like you, don't find very compelling. It would be more logical to 
assume DD wanted Snape on the Order's side helping Harry, but what seems 
logical to us might not really be the best choice.

Plus, I think everything indicates Dumbledore did intend Snape to be on the 
Order's side. He wasn't planning to die on the Tower by anyone's hand, as 
evidenced by his offer to Draco, an offer that DD would need to be alive to 
carry out.



Dana:
So maybe it is me failing to see what use Snape will be to Harry, but at 
this moment I see none. I even think Snape will be a lot of trouble because 
Snape will have to do whatever LV asks of him because if he doesn't, his 
benefit to Harry is short lived. Besides, we already know that Snape doesn't 
want to help Harry if he can get out of it. Sure even Quirell tells us Snape 
doesn't want Harry dead, but is this for the same reason the Order want 
Harry alive? Or is that pesky lifedebt still at play?  Everybody keeps 
saying that Snape has tried over and over to save Harry's life, but the only 
real attempted that has registered with me is in book 1.

Magpie:
I think we're all failing to see it because we can't see it yet--which is a 
good thing. Though I don't think it's so strange to say Snape is trying to 
save Harry. Harry is the one who's supposed to kill LV, and he could also 
have personal reasons for wanting to protect him (his history with Lily and 
James). That he hates Harry is what makes it interesting, imo, it doesn't 
make it impossible.

Yes, Snape has only tried to save Harry outright once in PS, but how many 
times does he have to do it? He did it the one time it came down to Harry's 
life being in danger in front of Snape. So in that case Snape acted in 
accordance with a person wanting to keep Harry alive whiel Quirrel acted as 
a person wanting Harry dead. And his sending the Order to the MoM I think 
does count as Snape acting in the Order's interests, against LV, and in 
Harry's best interest as well. That Harry "might have been dead" by the time 
he sent the Order makes no difference that I can see. If Snape sent the 
Order once he realized Harry had gone off to the MoM he's doing what a 
person who wanted to protect Harry would do, not someone who wanted Harry 
dead (and could easily have not sent the Order after him there). He doesn't 
have to "put his own life on the line" for Harry to act to save him. That's 
crossing the line from asking for proof he's acting to keep Harry alive into 
proving he adores Harry to asking for proof he really loves Harry like 
Sirius did, and Snape's never claimed to do that. He doesn't have to be 
running to the MoM in a tizzy to make sure Harry's all right to have been 
the one that was responsible for Harry being all right.

Dana:
He could have warned to MoM so the DE's would have been surprised by a dozen 
aurors instead of a couple of teenagers. For g*d sake, they were running 
around the MoM building: how hard would it have been for an auror to run 
into them without any risk to Snape's cover?

Magpie:
I don't understand what you mean. According to what I understood happening, 
Snape made sure Sirius was all right, which was all that was needed. Once he 
realized that Harry had gone off to the MoM--something he'd have no reason 
to suspect earlier--he alerted the proper people and they got there as fast 
as they could. He alerted the right people, the ones he could alert, and the 
ones who would know what to do. One of the big issues in OotP is that the 
Order are the only people who are even listening to the idea that Voldemort 
is alive.

Dana:
Many argue that Snape did not hurt Harry on the way out at the end of book 
6, but apparently they forgot Snape was run over by a Hippogriff. Snape's 
so-called hurt expressed in that moment seem to me his hatred for Harry is 
coming to a climax when Harry called him a coward -- not because Snape just 
had done a brave thing, but because the whole Harry/ James issue has 
prevented Snape to live the life he wanted as he is still controlled by a 
Potter brat in his adult life, and that must really hurt.

Magpie:
I would think the answer to that is that if Snape is so upset about that why 
didn't he let the guy keep Crucio-ing Harry? (And I think this was before 
Snape was chased by the hippogryff--wasn't that just at the very end?) It's 
not as big of a deal as killing the DE for harming Harry or whatever, but 
it's another instance of Snape being in a great position to just let Harry 
get seriously hurt and taking the trouble to stop it.

Dana:
So what do I think DD asked of Snape in the argument in the forest? Well, I 
believe DD asked Snape to stop his spying days and help Harry in his task to 
defeat LV. This would be too much to ask of Snape now that LV trusts him, 
because if he now renounced LV, he will move up on the "to do list" of 
things LV needs to dispose of.

Magpie:
My question to this would be that if Snape is worried about his life being 
at risk, why did he take a suicide pact earlier in the book?

And more importantly, why would Dumbledore ask Snape to stop spying when it 
was Dumbledore who made him start spying to begin with only a year and a 
half before? It makes it seem like Dumbledore's asking for show of loyalty 
from Snape by not spying when Snape's showing loyalty to Dumbledore by being 
a spy. I can't help but think that despite the fact that Voldemort would 
want Snape to die if he openly abandoned him, being a spy is still far more 
dangerous than just being under DD's protection.

Dana:
This would be something I can see Snape arguing about with DD, and what DD 
would order Snape to do. Personally, I believe DD's biggest mistake about 
trusting Snape is sending Snape back to LV in GoF. I believe Snape indeed 
turned in his loyalty and the reason for this is not because he is LV's man, 
but because he lost faith in DD. And I believe Snape's hate for James, 
Sirius and, eventually, Harry, is the cause of this. I believe Snape has 
grown to see DD as a substitute father and until Harry showed up everything 
was fine, and Snape was a happy camper getting the respect (or forcing it) 
from all who surrounded him, including DD: but then Harry shows up and in 
his first year he steals Snape's glory when he tries to expose Quirell, so 
DD's eyes are on Harry and not on Snape, and this must have brought back so 
many memories, for it was James who stole his glory when he himself was a 
student.

Magpie:
Could certainly be as intriguing a story as any!

Dana:
Snape's hatred for DD has been building over these 4 years, and I believe 
that OotP was the climax where Snape lost the intention to be on the right 
side; and I believe it did not go unnoticed.

Magpie:
So then Snape was on DD's side until OotP, and then changed his mind. I 
admit I don't think there's a changing Snape here. I think the two choices 
are Snape who was basically always LV's man (though one biding his time, as 
he says), or a Snape who was always DDM since he switched sides, as 
Dumbledore says.

Snape's sending the Order to the MoM is a problem in this scenario where 
he's switched sides by OotP. If he hadn't done that it's very likely Harry 
would have been killed, and he's doing it here when in your scenario he's 
back to being LV!Snape.

Dana:
I even believe that DD noticed the delay in time it took Snape to send the 
Order to the DoM, and it might even have caused DD to decide to finally give 
Snape the DADA position because he knew he had already lost him.

Magpie:
I think the problem with this is it always focuses on the alleged delay in 
time when the more obvious question is: why send the Order at all? It's 
mushy, with Snape having to presumably have to wonder how much time it would 
take for the kids to be dispatched so that he can send the Order just late 
enough. Yet in canon we still wind up with the Order showing up and saving 
Harry because Snape, the only person who could have alerted them, alerted 
them. We're back to a Snape whose problem isn't that he doesn't act to save 
Harry, but that he doesn't act to save him in a good enough way, even though 
Harry is still saved. So we're faced with a situation where Snape did save 
Harry because he took logical steps to do so, and we have to explain it 
away.

Dana:
Slughorn's memory of LV asking about the Horcruxes does not require him to 
be a teacher, even if it did make it easier. DD did not even needed Harry to 
retrieve it if push came to shove.

Magpie:
Canonically we are given reasons that Slughorn has to be a teacher. 
Dumbledore is bringing him to the school to get the memory while Slughorn's 
under his protection, and its his being at the school that leads to getting 
the memory. I agree that Dumbledore didn't really need Harry to do it, but 
he could use that training of Harry as an extra plus once he had Slughorn at 
the school, as you say. Dumbledore's bringing in Slughorn to teach Potions 
does seem to indicate he knows Snape will be gone at the end of the 
year--the DADA curse would make that clear anyway--but it doesn't mean 
Dumbledore must suspect Snape.

Dana:
Snape's attempts in all the books to get Harry expelled, I believe, are 
sincere, because I believe the fight between Snape and Harry are about 
sibling rivalry: to get a father's attention even if Harry is not playing 
the same game.

Magpie:
How many attempts does Snape make to get Harry expelled, exactly? I don't 
remember any of them--and I could just be forgetting, but the only times I 
remember Harry seriously needing to worry about not being at school is 
connected to pre-school plots, nothing to do with Snape. Sometimes when 
Snape brings up the idea of expulsion it's taken as Snape trying to get 
Harry expelled when he Harry being expelled isn't ever really a possibility. 
By HBP he's no longer bringing up the idea as a scare tactic.

Dana:
When Snape felt he could never win DD's attention, he also lost his loyalty 
to DD and thus the side of light, and he made the same decision he made when 
he was a young man: that the Dark Side had more to offer. Only problem is, 
Snape still has the lifedebt and it will come into play in book 7, and there 
we will see that Sirius' little joke will save both Snape and Harry. 
Because it will force Snape out of LV's camp, and Harry's side will be the 
only one left, and Snape will take it.

Magpie:
Ah, so we're back to the Life Debt again. Only the Life Debt is with James, 
not Harry. James, who died, possibly while Snape was trying to save him. So 
I don't see how Snape's Life Debt can be so important. It's not with Harry. 
He's not in Peter's position. Snape may, as Dumbledore says, *feel* that if 
he saves Harry he'll be even with James and can call it quits, but then he 
*does* have a reason to protect Harry and is doing so.

Dana:
For those who might wonder why DD did not mention to Harry that Snape might 
have turned, and also why DD would never ask Snape to kill him in front of 
Harry, is because he knows what hate can do to you, that it can consume you 
and that it will drive all love out of you if you let it control you.

Magpie:
Dumbledore did more than not tell Harry he thought Snape had turned. He told 
Harry he trusted Snape completely, just as he told the rest of the Order. He 
personally guaranteed them that Snape was to be trusted. So he lied. Why 
would he lie and put them in danger that way?  Harry already hates Snape and 
suspects him of being ESE. Dumbledore's hiding the fact that Harry's right 
seems like it would lead to more hatred on Harry's part, not less.

Dana:
So it is very improbable that DD died seconds before Snape AKed him and 
Snape still going through with it. Snape killed DD because he hated DD for 
not choosing him, not even when he spied for him at great personal risk. He 
still chose Harry, and thus James' and Sirius' side.

Magpie:
So Dumbledore actually knows that Snape is a DE, and that Draco is in fact 
right about his loyalties. When Snape comes to the Tower he pleads 
for...what reason? Because he starts to plead as soon as Snape appears. Is 
he pleading with Snape not to kill him? Were all his claims to "trust 
Severus Snape completely" just to make it a surprise for everyone else when 
Snape killed him? And why was he *asking* for Snape when they got back to 
the Tower at all, if he knew he had turned?

-m