Why DD did not ask Snape to kill him. (extremely long)

[puduhepa98 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 165944

>Dana <snip>
>There are a few reasons why I do not believe  that the scenario of DD asking 
Snape to kill him actually fits with what is  shown to us or why it isn't 
even logical (for me that is). Of course it is  besides the fact that the 
majority of fans seem to hold this view while JKR  specifically states it is not 
easily guessable what will happen in book 7 or she  will be extremely 
annoyed.<snip>
I have read many arguments about why  people believe what happened on the 
tower was directed by DD and Snape was  acting out his orders. Well, there are a 
few problems with the logic of these  arguments for me to understand them as 
true. Instead I am going to argue that I  think Snape indeed did kill DD 
because he got himself into this mess and there  was no other way for him to get out 
of it; but for me, DD's orders had nothing  to do with it. I even have 
another reason but will talk about that further  down.


Nikkalmati
At this point I am a DDMSnaper, but I don't believe DD ordered Snape to  kill 
him or planned it ahead of time.  What we see on the Tower is the  result of 
a broken plan, a salvage attempt, an adjustment to an unexpected  development.
 
Nikkalmati
 
 
>Dana
So why do I doubt DD asking Snape to kill him and why for  instance the 
argument in the forest does not sound as proof to me that DD asked  this of Snape? 
>From a logical standpoint, Snape's reaction in the forest makes  no sense if 
DD indeed asked him to kill him. Why? Because Snape by that time  already 
believed LV expected him to do it and he committed himself to an UV to  do it if 
Draco failed. So why argue DD for it? If he doesn't, he dies - either  by LV's 
hand, or due to the UV. So what does it matter if DD then asks him?  Wouldn't 
it make Snape's job a little easier if DD agrees it is for the  best?
 
Nikkalmati
I don't think we can get much out of the argument in the forest - except  
that Snape and DD argued, presumably in a location where they thought no one  
could hear them (remember Hagrid implied that they really went at it).  But  from 
a DDman Snape view, Snape could have been arguing that he was willing to  die 
rather than kill DD.  DD was saying we are not going to let it come to  that 
point, but if it does, I want you to live rather than me.  At  Spinner's End 
Snape did not say LV wanted him to carry out Draco's task in the  end - just 
that Snape thought that was what he wanted.  (Personally, I  think Snape was 
lying through his teeth in this whole scene and had no previous  knowledge of the 
task or of what LV wanted or did not want). Lets assume LV  wanted Draco dead 
- then why would he order Snape to kill DD, if Draco  failed?  If he thought 
Snape could kill DD why not just have him do  it?    
 
Nikkalmati (inserting post from wynnleaf from last summer below)


>wynnleaf
>In any case, what I'm basically saying is that Snape's argument with  
Dumbledore is due to anxiety over the intricate nature of 
Dumbledore's  plans and the fact that they relied on too many 
variables whose outcome  Snape felt Dumbledore was taking for 
granted. What I'm supposing is that  some of those things Dumbledore 
took for granted *did* fail him. His plan  depended on a certain 
timing from Draco. But events moved too swiftly within  the castle, 
foiling Dumbledore's two attempts to get Harry to Snape and  Snape 
back to Dumbledore -- thereby ultimately resulting in Dumbledore's  
death.

<snip>
 
>Dana
>Okay the second argument of many Snape fans is that Snape is doing this  on 
DD's order to save Draco from becoming a murderer. This necessitates the  
question; DD's death is serving Draco how? <snip>
 
Nikkalmati
The idea is that Draco will not have to split his soul by killing an  
innocent helpless man.  Sure, the details of what Draco will do now is  going to be 
worked out in the next book.  Will LV forgive him?   Possibly Snape will 
advocate for him.  Yes, Snape will have to give some  excuse why he killed DD, but I 
suspect LV will be pretty happy overall.   No, it seems way beyond the terms 
of the UV to assume Snape has to do any job LV  assigns Draco in the future.
 
Nikkalmati

>Dana
>So again I ask the question: how does this arrangement protect Draco?  By 
the way, isn't it interesting that in the US version DD suggests something  
entirely different? Doesn't this suggest that if Snape and DD arranged this,  then 
saving Draco was never part of it, why else suggest something different to  th
e boy if all as been arranged in the first place? It doesn't make sense to me 
 that DD would ever want Snape to kill him to deliver Draco back to LV; and  
besides, also like Neri has suggested before, don't you think it would raise 
an  awful lot of questions if Snape would still walk this earth while Draco 
died,  and thus failing his task, and of course DD is not dead either; but if 
Snape  kills DD than Draco can't be hidden away so... This sounds to me that DD 
was  either not aware of the UV or did not care much for Snape keeling over for 
 breaking the vow. At least it doesn't seem like DD has the same plan as 
Snape  fans say he does if he ordered to have Snape kill him because he is more  
valuable alive (and in LV's camp), because if Draco had taken the offer it 
would  be bye bye Snape. Even if the UV would not be broken Snape would still have 
to  face LV and you can bet your *ss that Bella would bring Snape's head on a 
silver  platter for having her sister and her nephew killed (as no one will 
tell her  about it, she is to loyal to LV and if to many people know then there 
is too  much risk for this plan to fail), and not finishing the job and it 
would have  been the end of the plan. Doesn't sound really airtight to me this 
plan Snape  fans are trying to sell me but than again I am not interested in a 
bridge  either. (Sorry, could not resist promise will behave from now on) 
 
Nikkalmati
Huh?  I can't follow this at all.  DD and Snape never planned for  Draco to 
get a clear shot at DD or to get DEs into the castle.  DD is  trying to talk 
Draco out of killing him.  At that point, there are quite a  few options because 
the DEs and Snape are not there.  DD could cook up a  story about his having 
killed Draco and make him disappear.   Would that trigger the UV?  Not if 
killing DD wasn't "necessary."   Enter DEs stage right and that plan collapses.
 
Nikkalmati
  

>Dana
>Oh, but there is more of course, because Snape fans will say DD asked  this 
of Snape because Snape is more important to Harry alive. How? So he can  tell 
Harry what LV is going to do next? Or any of the members of the Order? Are  
they really going to listen to what he has to say? It was DD who trusted him,  
but he never explained to anyone why. I think it is a little too much to ask of 
 anyone to still keep this in mind when the same person just killed the one 
who  trusted him. 
 
Nikkalmati
I think Jo can work this out. <bg>
 
>Dana
 
>By the way -- without the UV Snape could just go to LV and tell him he  
doesn't want to pretend he is working for DD anymore and that he wants to come  
out and be a proud DE. This does not require a dead DD -- 
 
Nakkalmati
 
Maybe LV wouldn't want that?
 
Nikkalmati
 
>Dana 
<big snip>
>   And beside when did Snape ever put his own life on the  line for Harry? 
He certainly did not go to the MoM himself to make sure Harry  was okay; he was 
the only one who knew and still found his cover more important  and we are 
told he was ordered by LV to stay behind meaning he was privy to LV's  plans, 
even before Harry's adventure to the DoM. He could have warned to MoM so  the 
DE's would have been surprised by a dozen aurors instead of a couple of  
teenagers. For g*d sake, they were running around the MoM building: how hard  would 
it have been for an auror to run into them without any risk to Snape's  cover?
 
Nikkalmati
 
Why isn't his cover important?  Also, why would he think Harry could  get to 
the MOM?  He checked on Sirius, went back to Umbridge's office  (presumably) 
learned Harry, H and U were gone into the forest, checked the  forest and then 
alerted the Order.  If you recall, no one at Hogwarts was  in good with the 
Ministry at that time or in a position to request Aurors.   I really don't see a 
time gap.  If Snape intended for the Order to arrive  late, he sure messed 
up.<g>  I think Snape has general orders from LV  not to take part in any 
actions.  I doubt he was told about the attempt to  lure Harry (remember he is lying 
to Bella IMHO) and even if he was, there was no  reason to believe Harry 
could get to the MOM until he realized Harry was  missing. How can he get away 
with lying to Bella?  I don't think she  (or anyone else) is in a position to 
question LV about what he is doing or whom  he consults.  He might take that 
amiss. 
 
Nikkalmati . 

>Dana
>Many argue that Snape did not hurt Harry on the way out at the end of  book 
6, but apparently they forgot Snape was run over by a Hippogriff. Snape's  
so-called hurt expressed in that moment seem to me his hatred for Harry is  
coming to a climax when Harry called him a coward -- not because Snape just had  
done a brave thing, but because the whole Harry/ James issue has prevented Snape 
 to live the life he wanted as he is still controlled by a Potter brat in his 
 adult life, and that must really hurt.
 
Nikkalmati
Yeah, I'm sure it does hurt.  But  Snape had plenty of time in  this scene to 
do damage to Harry or to petrify him and carry him off before  Witherwings 
shows up.  BTW you didn't mention Snape stopped the Crucio  either directly or 
by advising the caster that it was forbidden.
 
Nikkalmati

>Dana
>So what do I think DD asked of Snape in the argument in the forest?  Well, I 
believe DD asked Snape to stop his spying days and help Harry in his  task to 
defeat LV. This would be too much to ask of Snape now that LV trusts  him, 
because if he now renounced LV, he will move up on the "to do list" of  things 
LV needs to dispose of. This would be something I can see Snape arguing  about 
with DD, and what DD would order Snape to do.
 
Nikkalmati
If DD asked Snape to go back to spying, why would he ask him to stop?   Do 
you expect Snape to teach Harry DADA like he taught him Occlumancy?   <g>  (BTW 
I believe canon makes it clear the failure of the lessons  was primarily 
Harry's fault). 
 
>Dana
> Personally, I believe DD's biggest mistake about trusting Snape  is sending 
Snape back to LV in GoF. I believe Snape indeed turned in his loyalty  and 
the reason for this is not because he is LV's man, but because he lost faith  in 
DD. And I believe Snape's hate for James, Sirius and, eventually, Harry, is  
the cause of this. I believe Snape has grown to see DD as a substitute father  
and until Harry showed up everything was fine, and Snape was a happy camper  
getting the respect (or forcing it) from all who surrounded him, including DD: 
 but then Harry shows up and in his first year he steals Snape's glory when 
he  tries to expose Quirell, so DD's eyes are on Harry and not on Snape, and 
this  must have brought back so many memories, for it was James who stole his 
glory  when he himself was a student.
 
<big snip of coherent and excellent analysis of Snape's character from  one 
POV)

Nikkalmati
 
I see where your coming from, except that this is not the character I see  
after 6 books.  This character is immature, childish, insecure and  petty.  This 
Snape was the one we saw in Book 1 and was still possible  after Book 3, but 
as the layers of the onion have been peeled away we have seen  an increasingly 
strong and powerful wizard who IMHO does not fit you  description; coherent 
as it may be,it is not the man Jo is writing.  I  certainly do not claim that 
you are incorrect, only that I do not see it.
 
DD was a reasonable judge of character, after all, he saw through LV from  
the start.  He knew the whole history of Snape from the time he was a  child; 
how could he have missed this and how could he have trusted Snape  "completely", 
if he knew this was the kind of man he was?  
>From another angle, Jo clearly does not want us to know where Snape's  
loyalties lie.  Isn't it likely that the most obvious interpretation is the  one 
that will turn out to be wrong?
 

>Dana
>For those who might wonder why DD did not mention to Harry that Snape  might 
have turned, and also why DD would never ask Snape to kill him in front of  
Harry, is because he knows what hate can do to you, that it can consume you and 
 that it will drive all love out of you if you let it control you. Snape 
would  not have died, not by UV or at the hands of LV, if he let DD die on his own 
 accord (if he was really dying from the potion from the cave), so if Snape 
by  legillimency saw DD was dying he could have stalled to let DD die because 
you  cannot kill someone that is already dead, and the vow to do the task Draco 
was  ordered to do would nullify at that same moment. Harry would not have 
hated  Snape even more and Snape could still cross over to LV if that was really 
what  DD wanted of him, and also order out the DE because DD's death was the 
end of  the mission, end of story. 
 
Nikkalmati
Well, isn't that exactly what happened?
 
 (Thanks for the alternative  perspective)
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