Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 166212

> zgirnius:
> Snape's position is parallel to Sirius's not because they were both the targets of a spell, 
> but because they both took on a role which places them in jeopardy. The idea of the 
> secret SK switch was that everyone would believe Sirius was the SK, and thus it is he, not 
> Peter, who would be in the most danger. If Snape swore a vow to carry out a task he had 
> no intention of performing, Snape likewise put himself at risk.

Jen:  I'm finally getting this portion of the parallel.  It's hard for me to agree completely 
(more below), but thank you for explaining.  I initially did see this point and then got 
confused again when I remembered Sirius didn't actually take the Vow.

> zgirnius:
> I guess I think about ethics differently than you do. What makes Snape's choice bad 
> here, it seems to me, is circumstance, which is not something on which I judge the 
> rightness or wrongness of a previous action. I recognize your opinion may differ on this.
> 
> Snape did not think his Vow would ever lead to his killing Dumbledore because he knew 
> what he was going to do if the Vow kicked in - nothing. In my opinion, this was a 
> reasonable assumption to make.

Jen:  I'm sorry if I implied my opinions are about my or anyone else's personal ethical 
system.  I gave my interpretation of JKR's moral universe as the framework in my first post, 
then failed to be clear about my intentions in the second one.

The Fidelius appears to be 'good' magic, the very name implies loyalty and trust and in its 
intended form, a person is agreeing to hide within himself the fate of someone he cares 
about enough to risk his life for.  The Secret Keeper makes the choice up front knowing 
exactly what he/she is being requested to do and agreeing to the risk.  I'm guessing if a 
person decides to be the SK and changes his mind midway through the 'immensely 
complex' spell, there would be no punishment for stopping the proceedings.

The Unbreakable is requested by someone who doesn't care if another person dies, it 
symbolically ties the hands of those involved and takes away choice and freedom from the 
one taking the Vow.  Given the nature of the Vow ceremony and the name, as well as Ron's 
description, my guess is the person in Snape's position is unable to change his/her mind 
once the Vow begins and therefore is at the mercy of the other person re: what he will be 
asked to do.  

This is more what I meant by an 'ethical difference'.  Snape chose to enter into a Vow that 
seems questionable to me from the perspective of Potterverse morality and the 
implications about dark magic, and his choice has consequences for everything that 
follows.  Deciding to lie during the Vow is not a problem to me or something I can't grasp, 
it's just secondary to what I'm considering the most important factor.

> Jen before: I'm uneasy if JKR takes the route of Snape choosing the Vow with the idea 
> that he wouldn't ever carry out the clauses, and then placing the responsibility for his
> choice squarely in Dumbledore's lap (if Snape was ordered to kill him).

> zgirnius:
>  I'm not. I'm not sure why you are based on your post...I'm being dense today, I fear. At 
>  any rate, Snape is free to disregard Dumbledore's wishes. (As, it would seem based on
>  his 'pleading' tone, Dumbledore is well aware). He is also in a position to understand
> and agree with Dumbledore's reasons for the request.

Jen:  It would be consistent with JKR's choice theme if the UV is important in its own right 
and not because of the outcome; I think JKR will place a moral weight and significance on 
the UV as well as the tower.  I would prefer that option to the UV as simply the means to 
get from point A to point B.  Plus it's consistent with JKR's typical structure, a decision is 
made at a pivotal moment early on and everything transpires from there, i.e., Sirius 
deciding to go after Peter when he sees the picture of Scabbers or Voldemort deciding to 
go after the prophecy.  I see the UV as the driving force behind the events of HBP, or 
perhaps the UV in connection with Dumbledore's injury via the Horcrux since both were 
the jumping-off point for major storylines.  

> zgirnius:
> It's his job anyway, so he should not do anything at all shady in its performance? If he 
> does not do things actively to improve his chances of getting information, presumably 
> he will get less of it than he otherwise would. The Vow is a lie if he does not intend to
> keep it, and I would imagine, not his first. Other than that, it seems to endanger him, 
> which seems a risk he has the right to take on if he finds the possible rewards worth it.

Jen: LOL, no, I'm sure he's done plenty shady, as has half the Order (unauthorized people 
in the DOM hiding under the Invisibilty Cloak??).   I do think JKR made a big production 
about the UV and I read it as more than shady.  

> zgirnius:
> I don't have a problem with the idea that the Vow was an error.  However, I do see a 
> purpose for a Vow of some sort in the plan. If Snape has been told about Draco's task by
> Voldemort, he can't be seen interfering with it to save Dumbledore. The Vow gives him a 
> cover for  his involvement in the guise of helping Draco, and a motive for doing so (the 
> risk to him if Draco fails).

Jen:  Nothing Snape said in 'The Unbreakable Vow' would have been different except he 
wouldn't have mentioned taking the UV and instead would have left it at, 'I swore to your 
mother I would protect you.'

Pippin:
> It's right there in the text. Narcissa is at the end of her rope, ready to attack her own
> sister, openly defying her master's commands, literally tearing her hair in desperation.
> If Snape won't intercede for her and won't give her the only assurance she'll accept that
> he'll help her, what will she do? Passively accept her fate? If she was going to do that,
> she wouldn't have gone to Snape in the first place.  None of the fine, good plan can 
> come to pass unless Draco shows up at Hogwarts and if Snape refuses Narcissa, who's 
> to say that he will? 

Jen:  So far Potterverse characters tend to act at pivotal moments because they know 
specifically what another character is planning to do (even if they are making a wrong 
assumption) or they have an emotional reason to act.  A motivation like Neri proposed 
with ACID POPS, or even a toned version of that to say Snape acted because he loved 
Narcissa as a friend, would be a complete motivation in the moment without conjecture 
about future events.  Snape being aware of a specific plan Narcissa intended to carry out if 
Snape didn't take the UV could work.  

Snape assuming Narcissa was about to go off the deep end and do something rash or that 
she had the ability to keep Draco from Hogwarts (which I don't think she did from Draco's 
actions in HBP), is a very vague scenario in my opinion.  I don't think Snape's motivation 
for the UV is clearly printed on the page yet.

Jen R.