Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 166214


> Jen:  
> The Unbreakable is requested by someone who doesn't care if another 
person dies, it 
> symbolically ties the hands of those involved and takes away choice 
and freedom from the 
> one taking the Vow.  Given the nature of the Vow ceremony and the 
name, as well as Ron's 
> description, my guess is the person in Snape's position is unable 
to change his/her mind 
> once the Vow begins and therefore is at the mercy of the other 
person re: what he will be 
> asked to do.  

zgirnius:
Oops, sorry, I had forgotten this was your view of the way the Vow 
works. I am supposing that Ron's reporting of Arthur's account of 
what a UV does is complete and accurate - in other words, the Vow 
does not take away the free will of the Vower (since this was not 
mentioned - if Ron's account was incompletle, this is of course a 
possibility). But if the Vower fails to carry out the terms of the 
Vow, he or she dies.

Jen:
> This is more what I meant by an 'ethical difference'.  Snape chose 
to enter into a Vow that 
> seems questionable to me from the perspective of Potterverse 
morality and the 
> implications about dark magic, and his choice has consequences for 
everything that 
> follows.  Deciding to lie during the Vow is not a problem to me or 
something I can't grasp, 
> it's just secondary to what I'm considering the most important 
factor.

zgirnius:
Even in my version of how precisely the Vow works, I see the 
diference in the books' internal ethical system between the FC and 
the UV that you are pointing out. And I agree. However, in this case 
I see this difference as telling us something about the *users* of 
the two spells. (Especially if Lily was the caster of the FC, with 
that swishy wand of hers that was good for Charms work. I already get 
a sense of compare and contrast with her and Cissy.) The caster of 
the FC believes in the loyalty of a friend, the future Secret Keeper, 
enough to entrust to him/her the keeping a very important secret. The 
person requesting a UV obviously does not trust the Vower, she wants 
to make sure the agreement she extracts is enforced with deadly 
consequences for a breach. 

I agree that if the Vow is really just an Imperius Curse with the 
consent of the victim, Snape's agreeing to take one is more 
problematic than I give it credit for being. I just don't believe it 
is, so I don't see his taking one as necessarily reflecting badly on 
him. As a spy, he associates and passes among people who do this and 
worse on a regular basis; the Vow seems part and parcel of that to 
me. 

< Jen:
> It would be consistent with JKR's choice theme if the UV is 
important in its own right
> and not because of the outcome; I think JKR will place a moral 
weight and significance > on the UV as well as the tower.

Zgirnius:
You posit that Snape is literally unable to prevent himself from 
accomplishing the third clause of the Vow. He is not making a choice 
on the Tower, he is mechanically acting out a choice he made at the 
start of the year. Your way moves all the weight to `Spinner's End', 
it seems to me.

> Jen:  Nothing Snape said in 'The Unbreakable Vow' would have been 
different except he 
> wouldn't have mentioned taking the UV and instead would have left 
it at, 'I swore to your 
> mother I would protect you.'

zgirnius:
My argument is that Draco's attitude might have been different. Draco 
never suspects the possibility that Snape might be interfering with 
him because he's really working for the Order's side. I think if 
Bella suspected such a motive, she would have tried to communicate it 
to Draco along wiuth Occlumency and whatever else she taught him. The 
Vow proved to her that Snape will further the success of the plan, 
which left her with the 'steal Draco's glory' explanation of his 
actions.

A point about your view on how the Vow works - 
Is it your speculation that Snape did not tell Dumbledore everything 
about the Unbreakable Vow?

Because if he did, I am wondering what the meaning of Dumbledore's 
pleading at the end is to you. He can't be asking either to be 
killed, or to be spared, if he knows and the Vow works as you 
speculate. Snape has no free will at that moment, at least not 
regarding that topic.