Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 166225

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Zara" <zgirnius at ...> wrote:
><big snip>
> Zgirnius:
> You posit that Snape is literally unable to prevent himself from
> accomplishing the third clause of the Vow. He is not making a
choice
> on the Tower, he is mechanically acting out a choice he made at the
> start of the year. Your way moves all the weight to `Spinner's
End',
> it seems to me.

Dana:
I agree completely with Jen. To me indeed he is not making a choice
on the tower but I will not go as far as saying he made the decision
in the beginning of the year but he made the choice the moment
Flitwick entered his office and I tell you why. (which is of course
absolutely influenced by a decision he made in the beginning of the
year)

To me his actions before he reaches the tower makes this clear to me;

1) He takes out Flitwick, instead of giving him orders to alert the
MoM,
2) he never talks to anyone or does anything in his run to the tower.
3) he does not ask for any assistance while he does not know what to
expect when he gets there.
4) He takes only one minute to explore the scene and take DD out; he
never stalls to really think hard if it indeed is his only option.
5) On his way out he does not make sure all threats are eliminated
for instance by taking out the big blond.

I know Carol has debated the fact that no one could follow him on the
tower, due to the spell but I disagree because he never asked anyone
to follow him and then finding out they couldn't. I am pretty sure
Snape would have known how to break the spell and it would have taken
him only a second to do so but he never tries to take someone with
him because he had already decided what he was going to do if it
would come to it. Maybe he hoped that Draco already succeeded when
Flitwick tells him the Dark Mark is shining above the tower but I am
still pretty sure he made his choice before he got on the tower not
on the tower itself. Why? Because if you are going to take out a
friend you want to be very sure that it is indeed the only option you
have and you try to stall and win yourself some time but he does not.
He swoops the scene and takes DD out, that's it.

He also does not eliminate the biggest treat on the battlefield not
on his way in and not on his way out; the big blond DE and we see
Harry has to duck to not get hit by an AK thrown by the guy. He could
have died then and there but Snape doesn't seem to care not only to
keep Harry safe but neither to keep any of his supposed allies safe.
As DDM what would he care that the guy ends up in Azkaban, he even
lets the guy attack Hagrid and set fire to his cabin without
intervening. He only says no when someone turns on Harry but
apparently all other people DD cared about or even someone that
always stood up for Snape is not his concern.

Snape being so excellent in non-verbal spells, as he mocks Harry, is
not able in his passing by to take out this guy without anyone
noticing?

The main problem is that you base your assessment of what happened in
Spinner's End on the idea that Snape was ready to die himself but
that DD prevented him from doing so.

Well self-sacrifice in the Potterverse is indeed seen as a highly
noble thing but the problem is you cannot sacrifice self by ordering
someone else to take your life. If DD would feel this is indeed
necessary, then he went against his own moral code and Snape would
still be at fault for that because him taking the vow would call for
such measures.

Personally I do not believe that DD asked/ ordered this of Snape and
Snape made his own decision to choose his own life over DD.
I also found it very interesting re-reading the shrieking shack
incident that Lupin is able to disarm both Harry and Hermione (who
was holding two wands) with one spell.

Pg 252 UK ed. paperback:

"Expelliarmus!" Lupin shouted.

Harry's wand flew once more out of his hand; so did the two Hermione
was holding. Lupin caught them all deftly, then moved into the room,
staring at Black, who still had Crookshanks lying Protectively across
his chest.

End quote from canon.

Sure this needs an element of surprise but wasn't that precisely what
Snape had.

You might argue Greyback was not holding a wand, which makes the
amount of enemy wands equal to Lupin's situation. Snape had no
problem taking out Lupin with a flick of his wand and making sure he
could not do anything so I do not see Greyback being a larger
challenge and with the others disarmed, they could not have done much
about it.

So here goes the defense Snape could not possibly take on 4 DEs and
control the scene, give DD time to re-arm himself and make sure Draco
and Harry were safe. It is no longer valid to make the assumption
Snape's only option was to take DD out.

<snip>
> zgirnius:
> My argument is that Draco's attitude might have been different.
Draco
> never suspects the possibility that Snape might be interfering with
> him because he's really working for the Order's side. I think if
> Bella suspected such a motive, she would have tried to communicate
it
> to Draco along wiuth Occlumency and whatever else she taught him.
The
> Vow proved to her that Snape will further the success of the plan,
> which left her with the 'steal Draco's glory' explanation of his
> actions.

Dana:
Bella does suspect such a move and therefore she takes every
precaution to make it impossible for Snape to control Draco, someone
Draco trusted for years, who thought himself his favorite student.
You could even argue that Bella made sure it would be Snape who
finished the job as it was discussed in length that Draco would not
be able to do it anyway. Makes you wonder how much LV knows about the
vow doesn't it. Would be indeed very handy information to assure
Snape's loyalties. It was of course Bella who requested the vow in
the first place and who called Snape a coward for always hiding
behind his orders. Besides Bella's explanation to Draco was enough,
one has to wonder what made Draco lose his trust in Snape over such a
simple excuse as Bella presents to him and if Bella was convinced by
the vow then why mess with Draco in the first place.

I am still pretty sure DD expected that LV would order Snape to
finish the job as Snape expected himself; therefore I still believe
that DD ordered Snape out of LV's grip, not further in, but Snape
could not get out due to the vow because he already knew that if push
came to shove LV's side would be the only one left.

You know Jen's plan made me think of something. What if LV blamed
Snape for the DoM fiasco or more importantly that he blames Snape for
his comeback being known to the WW before he had all the cards in
hand? Many will argue that LV could not have known Snape was the one
sending the Order but there is one problem. Snape claims to have
contributed to Sirius' death which means he so much as declares it was
HIM who sent the Order. If he told LV the same thing then he pretty
much spun his own web.

> zgirnius:
> A point about your view on how the Vow works -
> Is it your speculation that Snape did not tell Dumbledore
everything
> about the Unbreakable Vow?
> Because if he did, I am wondering what the meaning of Dumbledore's
> pleading at the end is to you. He can't be asking either to be
> killed, or to be spared, if he knows and the Vow works as you
> speculate. Snape has no free will at that moment, at least not
> regarding that topic.

Dana:
Personally I believe he did not tell DD about the vow but I do
believe DD knew more than he let on but he left Snape with his own
choice as he has been doing with everyone the entire series, but I
believe he was pleading with Snape to make the right choice and that
was not killing him. This is another reason I could never believe
that DD would order Snape to take his life. Snape had free will,
before taking the vow and on the tower but he made his choice. If he
had a death wish he could have defied LV the moment the plan to use
Draco to kill DD was known, it would have been as quick and as sure
as the UV and he because he knew of the plan he could still help
Draco.

Dana (who really likes Jen's possible plan but thinks DD out smarted
LV by removing Trelawney from the castle himself as he might have
realized she was to be the target, the moment Harry tells him about
his encounter with her and that a murder attempt on his life might be
the distraction LV needed with or without Draco succeeding).