Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 166236


> > Zgirnius:
> > You posit that Snape is literally unable to prevent himself from
> > accomplishing the third clause of the Vow. He is not making a
> choice
> > on the Tower, he is mechanically acting out a choice he made at 
the
> > start of the year. 

> Dana:
> I agree completely with Jen. To me indeed he is not making a choice
> on the tower but I will not go as far as saying he made the decision
> in the beginning of the year but he made the choice the moment
> Flitwick entered his office and I tell you why. (which is of course
> absolutely influenced by a decision he made in the beginning of the
> year)
> 
> To me his actions before he reaches the tower makes this clear to 
me;

zgirnius:
To clarify, is it your position that Snape on the Tower had no more 
choice that Rosmerta, a victim of the Imperius Curse? (That is what 
Jen is proposing about how the Vow works). Are you suggesting that he 
was equally powerless to prevent the five actions you list him as 
taking?

If so, I'll just stop here and say that I disagree. It is my opinion 
that Ron told us the correct information. The Vowee has a choice to 
break the Vow, he or she simply dies if that is their choice. I have 
not given much thought to what I think about Snape under Jen's 
hypotheses, because while I grant she may be right, I don't believe 
it myself. 

> Dana:
> I am still pretty sure DD expected that LV would order Snape to
> finish the job as Snape expected himself; therefore I still believe
> that DD ordered Snape out of LV's grip, not further in, but Snape
> could not get out due to the vow because he already knew that if 
push
> came to shove LV's side would be the only one left.

zgirnius:
Surely that would depend on Snape's choice? Dumbledore
s not an easy man to kill.

Dana:
> You know Jen's plan made me think of something. What if LV blamed
> Snape for the DoM fiasco or more importantly that he blames Snape 
for
> his comeback being known to the WW before he had all the cards in
> hand? Many will argue that LV could not have known Snape was the one
> sending the Order but there is one problem. Snape claims to have
> contributed to Sirius' death which means he so much as declares it 
was
> HIM who sent the Order. If he told LV the same thing then he pretty
> much spun his own web.

zgirnius:
This is actually what I believe (though not because Snape said 
anything to LV, simply because he was the only Order member present 
at Hogwarts at the time). I think Snape's position is not 'most 
trusted advisor' (Cissy has ample motive to flatter Snape) 
but 'highly suspect person' at the start of HBP. Hence the need for a 
dramatic gesture of loyalty to shore up his standing, if he is to 
remain a spy at all.

Of course, this is one of the things I would point to indicating 
Snape was still loyal in OotP - that he did expose himself to this 
suspicion by Voldemort when he thought Harry was in danger.

> Dana:
> Personally I believe he did not tell DD about the vow but I do
> believe DD knew more than he let on but he left Snape with his own
> choice as he has been doing with everyone the entire series, but I
> believe he was pleading with Snape to make the right choice and that
> was not killing him. 

zgirnius:
My point in asking this question is that your interpretation is 
ionconsistent with the knowledge/deduction that Snape has taken a 
Vow, if Jen is right about the Vow. Snape *has no choice* about 
killing Dumbledore of Jen is right.