Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 166257

> <snip>
> zgirnius:
> To clarify, is it your position that Snape on the Tower had no more
> choice that Rosmerta, a victim of the Imperius Curse? (That is what
> Jen is proposing about how the Vow works). Are you suggesting that
he
> was equally powerless to prevent the five actions you list him as
> taking?
> If so, I'll just stop here and say that I disagree. It is my
opinion
> that Ron told us the correct information. The Vowee has a choice to
> break the Vow, he or she simply dies if that is their choice. I
have
> not given much thought to what I think about Snape under Jen's
> hypotheses, because while I grant she may be right, I don't believe
> it myself.

Dana now:

Well Snape might indeed have been a victim of his own stupidity in
taking the vow but that is not actually what I meant.
He had a lot of choices but he chose not to do any of these things
(the 5 point I mentioned). Personally I believe the vow is only
sealed after the vowee says "I will" and the last spell is performed.
So I believe Snape could have pulled out before the third clause was
sealed if he had chosen to do so.
The big question is (or at least I think so) would Snape have died if
someone other then Draco killed DD? I do believe the vow would have
nullified the moment DD died on his own because Draco cannot kill
someone that is already dead and therefore technically he would not
have failed his task but what about someone else doing the deed? That
would make Draco fail his task. I also believe that as long as Draco
is still there and not walking away he is still in the moment of
performing his task. So, what if someone else killed DD would Snape
still have died for failing to live up to the third clause of the
vow?

My problem with the whole Snape ordeal isn't so much the possibility
that Snape was caught in his own web but the suggestion that DD would
WANT Snape to kill him. I believe Snape did what he did out of his
own free will even if it was limited by the vow. I still believe that
if he was ready to die himself, that different choices leading up to
the tower scene would have made it possible for him to die and still
save Draco, Harry and DD. It is my opinion but I still am not
convinced that Snape was prepared to die himself.

><snip>
> zgirnius:
> Surely that would depend on Snape's choice? Dumbledore
> s not an easy man to kill.

Dana:
I agree but Snape did not battle with DD, now did he? He killed a
wandless and defenseless DD. One could argue that Snape could not
have known this but I believe he could because DD would want to have
Draco come to his own choices and that he would never battle it out
with Draco. (And maybe this also increased the risk of someone else
killing DD and Snape still dying as a result and why he was in such a
hurry)

<snip>
> zgirnius:
> This is actually what I believe (though not because Snape said
> anything to LV, simply because he was the only Order member present
> at Hogwarts at the time).

Dana:
How would LV have known that there was no one else present at
Hogwarts that could not have alerted the Order? Besides Snape being
the only Order member, someone else could have notified DD when Harry
went missing. And if Snape is DDM wouldn't you think he would have
kept the names of the Order members a secret as much as possible?

zgirnius:
>I think Snape's position is not 'most
> trusted advisor' (Cissy has ample motive to flatter Snape)
> but 'highly suspect person' at the start of HBP. Hence the need for
a
> dramatic gesture of loyalty to shore up his standing, if he is to
> remain a spy at all.
<snip>

Dana:
Well personally I do believe that LV himself made Snape think he was,
even if he wasn't because if Snape would already suspect that LV was
on to him then letting himself get caught into his own web would not
have worked because DD alive would have been his only chance to live.
I do understand where you are coming from but I do not for one moment
believe that if Snape did not believe LV trusted him that he would
have risked it all, not even for a dramatic gesture.

The thing I can't get my head around is that it seems, when you look
at the scene in the hospital wing, that most of the Order members at
one point have asked DD about Snape's loyalties but it never made
Snape do anything to convince them why he is truly loyal to them but
we see him bend over backwards (lying or not) to assure the DEs will
believe him.
What is the difference? Or why is it different at all. The DEs could
not touch him as long as LV believes in him and the Order members did
not question his information because they trusted DD. LV is not
someone that can be made to think someone is not trustworthy if he
believed the person is loyal to him, LV trusts is highly conditional
anyway. Order members would not interfere with Snape out of respect
for DD but DEs would not do anything out of fear because you do not
tell LV, he is too stupid to see Snape is double crossing him and you
do not take out LV's spy if he did not gave you a personal order to
do so either. Snape's only concern would be LV no one else so why go
to the trouble of explaining himself to Bella?

Maybe there is a very good answer for it but at this moment I am
stuck in my conclusion that it meant more to Snape that people in
LV's camp believed him.

zgirnius:
> Of course, this is one of the things I would point to indicating
> Snape was still loyal in OotP - that he did expose himself to this
> suspicion by Voldemort when he thought Harry was in danger.

Dana:

Well was Harry really in danger? LV wants Harry for himself, why go
to all the trouble of getting the prophecy by luring Harry to the DoM
if he had given the order to finish Harry off right then and there.
Harry's friends where the only ones really in danger, because they
could be used to convince Harry to hand over the prophecy.

I do not think it is an indication that Snape was still loyal to DD
in OotP, he might have thought he would lose his cover to DD if he
did not do anything. There were too many witnesses for him to do
nothing. But, and of course this is speculation, LV might have
expected Snape to stay out of it completely, when he ordered him to
stay behind.

I still think the time delay in notifying the Order IS significant
because maybe Snape felt confident, that raising the alarm late,
would give the DEs enough time to finish the job and get out. Maybe
he thought he could get away with it. I personally believe Snape is a
man who likes his options open and that he might have indeed chosen
LV's side but was still reluctant to close the door behind him
completely.

And I think this changed in HBP when LV made the decision to have DD
killed and with DD gone the door would automatically close on that
side because only DD could provide the necessary safety. This is why
I believe Snape felt the need to convince the DEs he is truly loyal
to LV and why he took the UV because killing DD himself, would be a
sure way the win himself a first row seat.

I truly want to see any indication that Snape is a DDM and I am open
to suggestions (yes, really) as long as they do not involve DD made
him do it. Self-sacrifice does not include having someone else murder
you, it is not a moral thing to ask and it indeed would strip Snape
from the limited choices he still had after taking the vow. It also
would not have been moral of DD to let Snape take the UV and make him
either him becoming potentially accessory to murder or a murderer
himself. Although the first one would be harder to prove after the
fact and might have been the one option Snape would have preferred so
he could again slither out of action.
>
> zgirnius:
> My point in asking this question is that your interpretation is
> inconsistent with the knowledge/deduction that Snape has taken a
> Vow, if Jen is right about the Vow. Snape *has no choice* about
> killing Dumbledore of Jen is right.
>
Dana:
Yes, he had a choice, he could have done everything within his power
to clear the way for Harry, Draco and DD to be safe and then die.
Maybe an option he did not like but it is still an option, especially
considering he had brought it onto himself and why should anyone else
have to pay with their lives for a choice he made?

Dana