Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 166238

Jen:  
> The Unbreakable is requested by someone who doesn't care if another person dies, it 
> symbolically ties the hands of those involved and takes away choice and freedom from
> the one taking the Vow. 

> zgirnius:
> Oops, sorry, I had forgotten this was your view of the way the Vow works. I am 
> supposing that Ron's reporting of Arthur's account of what a UV does is complete and 
> accurate - in other words, the Vow does not take away the free will of the Vower (since 
>  this was not mentioned - if Ron's account was incompletle, this is of course a 
> possibility). But if the Vower fails to carry out the terms of the Vow, he or she dies.

Jen: Ack, no, I didn't mean it that way!  I was rolling up a couple of different aspects into 
'free will', but not trying to say the UV somehow magically affects a person.  One part is 
that you can't change your mind and back out, you carry it out or die.  Another point is 
that Narcissa's clauses were vague and open to intepretation, so how is it determined if 
Snape is protecting Draco 'to the best of his ability'?  I don't think Snape's opinion about 
his performance would be the deciding factor, it would be the Vow itself somehow.  That's 
similar to the diary 'thinking for itself' in that the Vow has some type of sentient ability.  
The vowee (?) has no control over the terms or outcome.  

There's likely a way to undo the Fidelius because you would want a normal life back if the 
danger passed.  It follows that if a Secret Keeper suddenly decided, 'you know what, I love 
this person but I can't take the risk anymore,' then the secret could be removed.  And 
there's nothing subjective to the magic, you either give the information to someone or you 
don't.  

> zgirnius:
> However, in this case I see this difference as telling us something about the *users* of 
> the two spells. (Especially if Lily was the caster of the FC, with that swishy wand of hers 
> that was good for Charms work. I already get a sense of compare and contrast with her
> and Cissy.) The caster of the FC believes in the loyalty of a friend, the future Secret
> Keeper, enough to entrust to him/her the keeping a very important secret. The person 
> requesting a UV obviously does not trust the Vower, she wants to make sure the 
> agreement she extracts is enforced with deadly consequences for a breach. 

Jen: I would like to see a comparable scene with the Fidelius.  About the users, yes, there is 
a difference and that may be the important information.  

> zgirnius:
> My argument is that Draco's attitude might have been different. Draco never suspects 
> the possibility that Snape might be interfering with him because he's really working for
> the Order's side. I think if Bella suspected such a motive, she would have tried to 
> communicate it to Draco along wiuth Occlumency and whatever else she taught him.
> The Vow proved to her that Snape will further the success of the plan, which left her 
> with the 'steal Draco's glory' explanation of his actions.

Jen:  Ah, okay, I get your point here.  I don't think of Bella as having much influence over 
the DE's at the moment because she's out of favor with the Dark Lord.  She does appear to 
have influence over Draco however, so perhaps she would turn him away from Snape in a 
different way than Draco is already turning away, something other than the 'stealing the 
glory' thoughts.  

Sorry to snip out the rest, zgirnius, but since I don't think the Vow as compelling Snape to 
do anything, I couldn't really answer any of the questions!

Jen R., who has some more thoughts on the subject but sees the thread is taking a new 
direction so she'll have to catch up. :-)