[HPforGrownups] Re: LV's bigger plan (was:Fawkes possible absence)/ some War and peace

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 166430

<snipping stuff I think we both basically agree on>

>>> Magpie:
>>
>> Scabbers wasn't reversed. He was a surprise that detonated. Just
> as Fake
>> Moody was. This is more like if Fake Moody was revealed as being
> Barty
>> Crouch Jr. and then revealed to really be Rabastan LeStrange. Or
> if Scabbers
>> was revealed as really being Peter and then revealed to be Stubby
> Boardman.
>> "Everything is not as it seems" ends when we're told how things
> really are,
>> and after that we can usually accept that corrected information.
>
> Alla:
>
> I disagree. For three books we thought Scabbers was a rat and for
> one book we thought Fake Moody was a real one. I think it was a
> reversal of who we thought those characters are.

Magpie:
But there is a difference, imo. We thought Scabbers was a rat because he was 
a rat. There was no mystery around him. Then there was this surprise given 
to us--he's really a man! To do it again undermines the first surprise. PoA 
also included the surpise the Lupin was a werewolf and Sirius Black was the 
good guy. To change them again--to say that Lupin was really a vampire (or 
even also a vampire) the whole time or Sirius really was the murderer...it's 
throwing away an actual climax and making it sort of silly. There was only 
one surprise about Scabbers because his being a rat was not a surprise, it 
was his original state and not interesting to begin with. He was "not as he 
seemed" without us knowing it, but then we learned what he really was.

It is a change in what we thought the characters were, but I don't really 
think you can pull more than once change like that on one character. If you 
do then the character ceases to be anything, because we know he can just 
change into something else. The real answer for who these people were is 
that they always were, and explains all of their actions, some of which 
don't make sense with the first reading. Rat!Scabbers doesn't explain his 
disappearance in PoA. Peter!Scabbers did. There can be more added, of 
course. Like with Snape whenever we learn more about him it can be a fresh 
surprise because it's always leading in the exact same direction--right 
towards Voldemort and Harry!

> Magpie:
>> I don't ever want to say that I know for sure what could and could
> not
>> happen--I'd probably be wrong! But there are things that do seem
> like plot
>> threads that are tied up vs. unresolved issues to me, and even if
> they turn
>> out to be overturned, I don't see a strong case being made yet for
> why they
>> are really unresolved, if that makes sense. The series wasn't
> finished in
>> GoF either, but the mysteries revealed there seemed to mostly be
> taken as
>> fact. I think Carol said it well when she said "story structure
> and
>> narrative technique can tell us what *not* to expect in the final
> book"
>
>
> Alla:
>
> Hmmmm, story structure and narrative technique.
> It does help often enough, but how often in JKR books did we predict
> what was going to happen next?

Magpie:
I think we often predicted what *wouldn't* happen next, which is what JKR 
said. I would say that, also, while I don't think fans have predicted 
specific twists that they often have predicted general things based on story 
structure and narrative technique. Though given how big and varied fandom 
is, any correct prediction came alongside a million wrong ones. (Of course, 
I might have been more aware of stuff like that anyway, since Draco-fans 
have often been heavy on the narrative structure stuff and all that.)

The reason I think these particular examples work is that you can ask 
yourself whether the twist would make the story better or worse. Which 
version is more dramatic? It's never just about not being unpredicted. I 
knew without spoilers that Dumbledore was going to die in HBP, but I 
certainly didn't know how it would happen. I never guessed those 
particulars. I did a whole post on this once regarding GoF and the way that 
what makes it (and the other books) so satisfying even upon rereading is 
that we've always really been given hints of the truth, so that when we get 
it it clicks into place and explains everything, so you feel like you 
suspected even when you didn't.

Alla:
> Like for example you know we are reading ( well rereading for me)
> War and Peace in my bookclub, hehe.
>
> I love that book, I really love that book. When I first read it at
> the young age of fifteen, of course I could not predict that Prince
> Andrew dies (sob), even though I was an avid reader at that age
> already.
>
> Now when I reread the book, I am thinking of the tradition of the
> young talented people who could not apply their talents in Russian
> literature of 19 century, I am thinking of Tolstoy's philosophy to
> go back to his roots, I am thinking of Russian tradition describing
> good hearted but rather dump people as characters.
>
> In short I can **totally** see that Andrew is a goner(sob), but even
> now, had I not remembered it, I could not in a million years predict
> who will become Princess Mari's husband. It was a *Huh?* for me and
> it still is, even after all these years.

Magpie:
I seem to remember having the same reaction.:-)

But yeah, I would never want to underestimate JKR's ability to surprise, but 
I do think that while she surprises us on the particulars a lot of the books 
are very traditional and follow very classic methods of good storytelling. 
They're even more rigid than some, given the schoolyear pattern. So it's not 
even just a case of narrative technique but that we've been reading this 
woman's work for thousands of pages and certain ideas are just not what 
seems to interest her.

I guess...going off on a tangent...I tend to see the stories within the 
books in really broad strokes in general and when something seems just not 
in keeping with what she "does" that's another reason it doesn't sound right 
to me. Like any theory that's about Voldemort's strategy and what Voldemort 
needs--I don't think Voldemort's that kind of villain. I've  yammered on in 
the past about how I don't agree with the Cabinet First!plan in HBP, and 
part of the reason (besides not seeing even Voldemort acting in accordance 
with it, thus making it mushy) is that thematically it seems to screw up the 
story that seems to be so Rowling--right down to it being best not to look 
at the details and instead look at the operatic family drama.

Jen:
This interests me, though.  You mention Voldemort
'watching what happens' and above said 'Dumbledore and Snape had seized on' 
the events.  Would it discount what happened in HBP for you, the way the 
characters acted and the choices they made, to find out they all did exactly 
what Voldemort expected them to do? That he put together the pieces about 
'fools who love' and expected Narcissa would go to Snape as the natural 
choice after Lucius, that
Snape could not refuse her, that Bella would want to drive a wedge between 
Snape and Draco (or anyone really), and that Dumbledore would do everything 
he possibly could to safeguard the students under his care at Hogwarts if 
DE's entered, including dying himself if that was the only way to make them 
leave?

I don't mean to say Voldemort is omniscient and he planned every detail 
playing out exactly as it did.  Rather, I see a reason behind JKR's choice 
to tell the story of Draco/Dumbledore while spooling out the transformation 
of Riddle into Voldemort at the same time.  Voldemort underestimating the 
power love holds is a double-edged
sword, it is his downfall, but also the core of his cruelest skill--'I can 
make bad things happen to those who annoy me.  I can make them hurt if I 
want to.'  His methods are more sophisticated now, he doesn't require only 
magical power to hurt people anymore.  I would not be disappointed in the 
story we have to find out that Voldemort was 'behind' the events of HBP and 
whatever DH holds, not by literally
moving the pieces on the chessboard but by pitting people against each 
other, spreading discord and enmity.

Magpie:
That is interesting. I guess I would answer by saying that Voldemort does 
spread discord and enmity, and I think that's something he encourages in his 
followers. The stuff between Bella and Snape is, I think, typical for DEs 
and something Voldemort approves of, the way they jostle for position and 
try to bring each other down. Ditto on the way Bellatrix seems to then sew 
distrust in Draco for Snape. Draco is thus on the edge of the person he was 
(someone who trusted Snape) to someone who doesn't trust anyone. I don't 
think Bellatrix succeeds, btw. Draco, to me, comes across very much in HBP 
as someone who is challenging and angry at Snape, but still basically needs 
and-dare I say-loves him.

I also think that merely giving Draco the task is an example of the way LV 
uses love against people, and shows what he thinks of it. Draco is a 
vulnerability for Lucius because Lucius cares about him. And he can make 
Draco jump through hoops for him simply by threatening his family. Voldemort 
has no such vulnerabilities, because he doesn't care about anyone.

But I don't think he can go a step further than that. As someone recently 
said, and I agreed, a lot of Western Literature is based on the idea that 
good can understand evil, but evil can't understand good. I think Voldemort 
could probably plan to use Dumbledore's care for his students against him, 
but not conceive of the way Dumbledore handled Draco throughout the year.

I suspect LV thinks Snape is even more like himself, and perhaps he admires 
him for that. I have no idea what the meaning behind the Vow is, but it 
pings me as a true secret from Voldemort, a symbol of the bad side starting 
to crack, more than something he'd arranged. To me it read like a sort of 
"beginning of the end" scene because Spinner's End so seemed like the kind 
of night to start things in motion that would have big consequences. So I 
guess I felt like the time of Voldemort just controlling his side was over.

Obviously that's just a feeling. Have to wait for DH to really understand 
it. And I do think that a lot of HBP will only become clear with DH. It sort 
of ends with a feeling of a held breath.

-m