LV's bigger plan (was:Fawkes possible absence)/ some War and peace

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 166431

> > Alla:
> >
> > I disagree. For three books we thought Scabbers was a rat and for
> > one book we thought Fake Moody was a real one. I think it was a
> > reversal of who we thought those characters are.
> 
> Magpie:
> But there is a difference, imo. We thought Scabbers was a rat 
because he was 
> a rat. There was no mystery around him. Then there was this 
surprise given 
> to us--he's really a man! To do it again undermines the first 
surprise. PoA 
> also included the surpise the Lupin was a werewolf and Sirius 
Black was the 
> good guy. To change them again--to say that Lupin was really a 
vampire (or 
> even also a vampire) the whole time or Sirius really was the 
murderer...it's 
> throwing away an actual climax and making it sort of silly. <SNIP> 

Alla:

But I agree with you. Yes, to change them again would be silly, not 
dramatic, pointless, absolutely.

The only thing I am questioning is that ( sorry for being a parrot) 
whether based on HBP being a first part of two books, whether true 
change occurred yet, you know?

It is like, I don't know, I guess the best analogy for me would be 
that PoA would be published in two parts and Scabbers is still a 
rat, you know?

Does it make sense to you?



> Magpie:
> I think we often predicted what *wouldn't* happen next, which is 
what JKR 
> said. I would say that, also, while I don't think fans have 
predicted 
> specific twists that they often have predicted general things 
based on story 
> structure and narrative technique. Though given how big and varied 
fandom 
> is, any correct prediction came alongside a million wrong ones. 
(Of course, 
> I might have been more aware of stuff like that anyway, since 
Draco-fans 
> have often been heavy on the narrative structure stuff and all 
that.)
> <SNIP>

Alla:

Yeah, Draco. As I mentioned before, hate him as I am, after book 6 
my instincts are telling me that little bastard ( sorry, as I said I 
do hate him :)) would be redeemed, but do you think anything what 
happened so far stops JKR from doing what Cassie predicted? Like DE 
using him for something ( trap Snape or whatever) and Draco dying 
pointless death? I mean, what in narrative structure you see that 
may stop JKR from doing it?

You may say it will throw out all the changes that Draco went 
through in HBP, discovering that he is not a killer, etc. And I will 
raise that the idea of Draco's story was indeed to show the 
pointlessness of civil war, the attempt of DD to save Draco's soul 
may have worked or not, but death does not pick and choose in war, 
etc. That Draco may have started to see that he is not a killer, but 
the fact that he involved himself in being Voldemort's minion came 
down to bite him in the ass, sort of like Regulus. ( I mean we know 
Regulus did something very heroic and his death likely was not 
pointless, but analogy IMO still stands).

That's all I am saying really that we cannot be sure 100% what JKR 
planned, even though ( again, I find it amusing) I think you are 
right as to Draco.



> Magpie:
> I seem to remember having the same reaction.:-)
> 
> But yeah, I would never want to underestimate JKR's ability to 
surprise, but 
> I do think that while she surprises us on the particulars a lot of 
the books 
> are very traditional and follow very classic methods of good 
storytelling. 
> They're even more rigid than some, given the schoolyear pattern. 

Alla:

Yeah, they sort of are in that sense. But I raise you another 
question - what would prevail at the end , which pattern - coming of 
age story or hero journey path, what would influence the ending more?

Can we predict that? I don't think we can for sure, personally.

Magpie:
So it's not 
> even just a case of narrative technique but that we've been 
reading this 
> woman's work for thousands of pages and certain ideas are just not 
what 
> seems to interest her.

Alla:

And again, I am not sure of that. Did you expect after OOP to see 
much more political stuff in the books? I know I did. I absolutely 
thought that JKR is interested in it and that we will see much 
broader picture of WW in HBP. Bureacracy in MoM, magical cooperation 
theme from GoF, they all appeared to me to be sort of dropped. ( Not 
quite, I grant you that, and it is possible it will resurfice in 
book 7, but still) I suppose she gave a nod on Stan Turnpike, but 
besides that?

I agree with you that there are **some** themes she is interested 
in, but that is all I am willing to stipulate :)

Magpie:
> I guess...going off on a tangent...I tend to see the stories 
within the 
> books in really broad strokes in general and when something seems 
just not 
> in keeping with what she "does" that's another reason it doesn't 
sound right 
> to me.

Alla:

I hear you, yes, I just always make allowances that she can do 
something new .


Magpie:
 Like any theory that's about Voldemort's strategy and what 
Voldemort 
> needs--I don't think Voldemort's that kind of villain.

Alla:

In general, I am not sure about that.


Magpie:
 I've  yammered on in 
> the past about how I don't agree with the Cabinet First!plan in 
HBP, and 
> part of the reason (besides not seeing even Voldemort acting in 
accordance 
> with it, thus making it mushy) is that thematically it seems to 
screw up the 
> story that seems to be so Rowling--right down to it being best not 
to look 
> at the details and instead look at the operatic family drama.
>
Alla:

LOLOL. It is easy to not agree with Cabinet first, because it is not 
in the books so far. 

JMO,

Alla