LV's bigger plan (was:Fawkes possible absence)/ some War and peace

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 166450

Magpie wrote: 
<snip> I think Carol said it well when she said "story structure and 
narrative technique can tell us what *not* to expect in the final  book"
> 

Alla responded:
> 
> Hmmmm, story structure and narrative technique. 
> It does help often enough, but how often in JKR books did we predict
what was going to happen next?

Carol now:
I think you may have misunderstood me. I said that "story structure
and narrative technique can tell use what *not* to expect. They can't
really tell us what to expect, with a few exceptions--for example, we
will certainly see a climactic encounter between Harry and Voldemort,
and I think we can confidently expect Harry to triumph whether or not
he survives.

But my point was that JKR's story structure involves a wrap-up of the
chief mystery or mysteries related to that particular book, and the
narrative technique she generally uses to provide this wrap-up
(exposition) is a dialogue between Harry and a central character or
characters in that book: Quirrell and Dumbledore in SS/PS, Lockhart
and Diary!Tom (and a bit from Lucius Malfoy and DD) in CoS;
Lupin/Black/Pettigrew in PoA (with a bit from Hermione re the Time
Turner); Barty Crouch Jr. in GoF; Umbridge and Dumbledore (with bits
from Lucius and Bellatrix) in OoP; and Draco and Dumbledore (with a
bit from Snape on the identity of the HBP) in HBP. 

The structure here borrows something from the detective story or
mystery novel, not necessary a crime but some puzzle that the main
characters are trying to solve using clues (or red herrings) is solved
once and for all. Just as in a detective story, the obvious suspect is
not the right one. SS/PS is an obvious example: we think that Snape is
trying to steal the Stone and it's really Quirrell. In PoA, we think
that Sirius Black is the murderin' traitor and that he's trying to
kill Harry. Wrong on two counts: the traitor is Wormtail, and he's
also black's intended victim. In GoF, we have a classic line-up of
suspects: Professor Plum, erm, Snape; Igor Karkaroff; Madame Maxime;
Mr. Crouch; Ludo Bagman; the supposed Mad-Eye Moody. The least likely
suspect (setting aside Dumbldeore, McGonagall, and Harry himself)
turns out to be the one who put Harry's name in the Goblet of Fire. In
books five and six, the detective novel structure isn't quite so
clear, but the central mystery (the dreams of the corridor and what's
in the DoM) along with the minor mystery of who sent the Dementors are
resolved. By the same token, the central mystery of what Draco is up
to and the minor (but intriguing!) mystery of the identity of the HBP
are resolved in exactly the same way as the mysteries in the earlier
books--exposition in the form of dialogue by key characters. To the
extent that each mystery is resolved, the books are self-contained. We
may get new developments or new ramifications from these resolved
mysteries (Wormtail resurrecting Voldemort, for example), but as
Magpie says, the resolutions aren't going to be unresolved.

HBP is not, of course, quite like the other books, and its climax, the
tower scene, is really the midpoint (close enough) of the two-part
book that is HBP/DH. So while Draco has provided his exposition--we
know exactly what he was up to and we thought was going on--and DD has
contributed much but not all of what he knew, Snape has merely
identified himself as the HBP. That minor mystery is resolved, just as
the identity of the person who cast the Dark Mark and put Harry's name
in the Goblet of Fire is resolved. But the central mystery of snape's
motives and loyalties, which has been in progress from the moment
Harry first saw him and thought he caused his scar to hurt, has not
been resolved. (I sincerely hope that we'll hear Snape's story from
his own mouth--and not as an unlikely pre-death soliloquy--in DH, but
we certainly have not heard it yet, or heard his story told from some
other source, if any such person other than the now-dead Dumbledore
could tell it.)

Alla: 
> Besides DD death of course - Hero journey and all that. <big snip>

Carol:
Just to clear up some confusion. I noticed that you referred to the
hero's journey and the coming-of-age story as parallel concepts in a
different post in this thread. The hero's journey, unlike the
coming-of-age story (Bildungsroman) is not a genre. (Possibly you're
thinking of the heroic quest, which is the primary genre of LOTR.) 

Forgive me if you know this already, but I know of several people who
have been confused by these discussions in the past, so please
understand that I'm trying to be helpful. I'm just using your remark
as a take-off point for my own comments.

The hero's journey is a paradigm, the stages in the sometimes
metaphorical journey of every hero or protagonist as outlined by
Joseph Campbell in "The Hero with a Thousand Faces." He believes that
all stories are just variations on the same story, whether that story
is HBP or "A Tale of Two Cities" or "Charlotte's Web." Possibly
there's some truth in this view, and certainly it has been
influential, especially in Hollywood, but it should not be confused
with the conventions of a particular genre. (It's possible, given
JKR's comments on mentors, that she has made this same mistake, but I
hope not.)

JKR is, in fact, blending--and bending--the conventions of a number of
genres, from the detective story/mystery novel to the school
story/Bildungsroman to the heroic quest. Like Shakespeare, who, of
course was working with drama rather than prose fiction, she blends
comedy with tragedy. At any rate, unless there's another mystery to be
resolved (where Snape's loyalties lie?), the structure of this book
will probably revolve around the four remaining Horcruxes, much as GoF
revolved around the three tasks, each a sort of mini-adventure and
preparation for the final conflict with LV. And, almost certainly,
there will be a confrontation with Snape. But that's about all we can
glean from story structure, and it's not much help. Knowing story
structure could not have led me, at least, to anticipate the events of
HBP. Not even knowing the things JKR always does--a new DADA teacher
in a cursed position, for example--could have led me to believe that
Snape would kill Dumbledore (though I did anticipate that Dumbledore
would die. And now, going back, I see hints all the way through: "As
long as Dumbledore is headmaster. . . ." and variations on that
sentence, in most if not all the books).

Magpie wrote:
I think, to go back to the topic of theings being unresolved, that we
can assume that everything that happened in HBP will have gotten Draco
to a place that he can't turn back from, whatever it is. So, for
instance, when people suggest that Voldemort could just make him kill
someone else that seems wrong because that spring has sprung, if that
makes sense. Draco couldn't approach another murder as the same
person--he's actually developed as a character, so would have to react
differently to that situation the second time.

Carol responds:
In theory, I agree with you, although I think that Draco was at an
impasse on the tower, standing "irresolute," and has not made up his
mind which way he should go. He is, however, definitely at a
crossroads, and if he's faced with another murder (not likely but
possible), he will at least know now what murder is.

Theoretically, looking at story structure again (or maybe character
development, in this case), you don't normally have a character
learning the same lesson twice. And yet JKR made what I consider to be
that mistake with Ron. In OoP, he overcomes his debilitating
self-doubts once the Twins leave and becomes a Quidditch champion
("Weasley Is Our King" takes on a whole new meaning unintended by its
author, the pre-HBP, pre-arrest-of-his-father Draco Malfoy.) And yet
in HBP, there he is again, lacking confidence until Harry tricks him
into thinking that he's drunk Felix Felicis.

But we've been there already. He shouldn't have to learn the same
lesson twice. And I hope the same is true for Draco.

Carol, hoping for surprises that don't involve unresolving resolved
mysteries and that can't be predicted based on story structure or
genre conventions