Unresolved things in the books WAS: Re: LV's bigger plan LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 166469

> Alla: 
> > Besides DD death of course - Hero journey and all that. <big 
snip>
> 
> Carol:
> Just to clear up some confusion. I noticed that you referred to the
> hero's journey and the coming-of-age story as parallel concepts in 
a
> different post in this thread. The hero's journey, unlike the
> coming-of-age story (Bildungsroman) is not a genre. (Possibly 
you're
> thinking of the heroic quest, which is the primary genre of LOTR.) 
> 
> Forgive me if you know this already, but I know of several people 
who
> have been confused by these discussions in the past, so please
> understand that I'm trying to be helpful. I'm just using your 
remark
> as a take-off point for my own comments. <BIG SNIP>

Alla:

Yes, Carol, I meant heroic quest of course. Magpie seemed to 
understand what I meant in any event.

While I know quite well what different genres mean, I may certainly 
get the English names wrong or confused sometimes.

I also used to think that being helpful only applies when person is 
asking for one's help.


> > Alla:
> >
> > Yeah, they sort of are in that sense. But I raise you another > 
question - 
> > what would prevail at the end , which pattern - coming of > age 
story or 
> > hero journey path, what would influence the ending more?
> >
> > Can we predict that? I don't think we can for sure, personally.
> 
> Magpie:
> Good point. There are certain things I'm expecting, like Harry 
reuniting 
> with Ginny and living happily ever after. But I don't really have 
any sense 
> of how the book will go at all.
> 

Alla:

Well, yeah, for sure I both want and expect this one, hehe, but 
personally more because I want it, you know?

I mean, heroic quest certainly does not prevent happy ending. 
Odyssey would be the first of famous examples to come to mind, but 
very often it is not a happy ending, no?

That is why I am keeping my fingers crossing that JKR's mixing 
genres will mean among other things happy ending for Harry.

You know, to go back to Star Wars for a second, somebody some time 
ago send me an essay showing that Anakin's journey reflects the 
formula of Hero journey **much** more closely than Luc's and I found 
it to be very true. And as we know Anakin did not exactly got a 
happy ending. I mean, he did spiritually, got back to Light, 
etc,etc, but I am trying to say that he did not get to live.

It was also very interesting for me to learn that Lucas purposefully 
built the scenario to reflect all major points of Campbell book in 
relation to his character.

I am sure people who are familiar with the history of that movie 
will tell me "Doh", but for me it was an eye opening. I mean, it was 
clear for me that the movie reflects Hero journey, I just thought it 
just happened and speaks to the universal truths of Campbell book, 
was funny to learn that he kind of cheated :)

> > Alla:
> ><SNIP>
>> > It is like, I don't know, I guess the best analogy for me would 
be
> > that PoA would be published in two parts and Scabbers is still a
> > rat, you know?
> >
> > Does it make sense to you?
> 
> Magpie:
> Oh yes, it does. And I think that there are a lot of things in HBP 
that have 
> been set up exactly that way, so that we're now halfway through 
and on the 
> wrong track about them. Definitely.

Alla:

Good :)

> Magpie:
> Nope, I didn't expect more political stuff at all.:-) That is, I 
expected 
> what we had before--the government being a beaurocracy and corrupt 
and 
> getting in Harry's way. Not that I predicted HBP at all. I've said 
before 
> that I think what happens in fandom is fans predict by writing 
more of the 
> last book, not realizing that JKR has gone off to write the next 
book, which 
> is always all different. Most post-OotP fics I read assumed it was 
going to 
> be all DA all the time, and while I didn't predict what happened 
in HBP, I 
> wasn't surprised that the DA was dropped. Things like government 
corruption 
> have always seemed like one of the things JKR uses to arrange the 
more 
> melodramatic situations about people in the books. Likewise stuff 
being done 
> to fight the "war", like gathering alliances and visiting other 
people, 
> always seemed totally outside of things JKR was interested in. 
That's why 
> they're usually so vague.

Alla:

I was not shocked that DA was dropped per se, it did seem sort of to 
be resolved, but on the other hand I thought it would be logical 
path to the unity of the houses, sort of. So, from that POV I was 
surprised that DA was dropped, yes. I thought it would be a plot 
device to move to the unity of the houses, which is a theme that she 
seems to be interested in IMO.

Do you know what I mean? I certainly did not expect the battles in 
HBP, Harry getting extensive military training with DA or something 
like that. Despite me liking that stuff in fanfic, I do not see JKR 
being interested in that IMO of course. I think that all Harry's 
magic that matters is heavily emotions oriented, people oriented, 
etc.

But yes, I did wonder why DA did not show up to promote the 
understanding between Houses. I guess she plans something different 
for that.

On the other hand, I suppose she left in enough of MoM idiocy to 
pick it if needed in book 7. I just thought there would be more of 
that, them being out of touch with reality, etc.


 
> Magpie:
> I may have not been clear what I even meant by that vague 
statement.:-) It's 
> hard to put into words, but Sydney wrote it out wonderfully in her 
post 
> about villains. Voldemort does certainly have strategies that are 
there for 
> Harry to deal with, but his plans seem to me to be pretty 
straightforward 
> and symbolic, fitting him as a "monster" villain.

Alla:

I vaguely remember Sydney's post, but do you basically mean that 
Voldemort's strategies are not very rational and mainly show his 
Evil overlordness? Or do you mean something different? Do you mean 
that Voldemort is incapable of rational strategizing at all?

Could you please clarify more? Thanks.

Jen:
<BIG SNIP>

> The kidnapping, whether someone buys it or not, was an attempt to 
fill
> in the gaps JKR didn't quite at the end of HBP.  I would love to 
hear
> someone else's conclusion as to why JKR completely omitted 
Trelawney,
> not only after the events of her predictions, but the new 
information she
> revealed to Harry about Snape.  

Alla:

LOVED your post Jen. I am indifferent personally to whether 
Trelawney was kidnapped or not, but I certainly think that you 
filled in the gaps with enough canonical support and raised enough 
questions to think about it. I think it is a very fair argument to 
consider.

> Hickengruendler:
> 
> Except that the chapter doesn't start with Snape. It begins with 
> Narcissa and Bellatrix arguing, if Narcissa should go to Snape. 
And 
> during this chapter Bellatrix says "This is a betrayal of the dark 
> Lord's...". She is interrupted by Narcissa then, but I assume she 
> wanted to say plans. That means if there is some secret pla with 
> Voldemort involved, Bella does not know about it, which makes it 
> highly unlikely.
>

Alla:

Yeah, chapter doesn't start with Snape :).

I just think that Bella not knowing about the plan, does not mean 
that such plan does not exist. It just mean that Voldemort only 
operates on need to know basis.

IMO of course.