Maraurders/he exists

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 168312

> > Mike:
> > Harry and Draco have a few dust-ups in the hallways, don't they? 
> > Probably not unlike James and Sevie. 
> 
> wynnleaf
> The problem here is that you have absolutely not a scrap of evidence
> that there were dust-ups in the hallways anything akin to Harry and
> Draco.   <snip>
> We have not only no examples, but not a bit of evidence that
> James and Snape ever had a "dust-up" one on one, nor do we have any
> evidence that Snape battled the Marauders with any help.  

Mike:
I'm not sure what exactly you disagree with. Is it the "in the 
hallways" part, or just the general "dust-up"? <yes, quite useful 
term, isn't it? ;)> I did say "probably" as in, it's a guess. But I 
don't think I'm positioned too far out on the limb to say that 
Severus and James had a few altercations before SWM. Where or how 
they occurred, I could only guess and don't think it is too 
important. That is, as long as I'm right in my *guess* that not every 
altercation was initiated by James. 

But you are right, we have only Sirius' testimony and Snape's 
continual disparaging of James on which to base our assumptions, and 
neither is unbiased. As for Snape getting help, all we know is what 
Sirius told us about that "gang of Slytherins" that Snape ran with. 
Again an assumption on my part, but I didn't picture those "nearly 
all turned out to be Death Eaters" types as organizing picnics by the 
lake with the giant squid. Whether they helped Snape out of some 
jams, I have no canon, only a sense that that is what JKR wanted to 
convey when she had Sirius speak these words.


> wynnleaf
> The *only* evidence that we have that James might have been wise not
> to turn his back on Snape is Sirius and Lupin's comments about Snape
> giving "as good as he got."  <snip>

Mike:
Ooh, not exactly. You may not think it counts because festivities had 
already commenced, but when James turns his attention to Lily in SWM, 
Snape gets off a junior Sectumsempra (a Sectumsomtimes?) on James.

wynnleaf
> Why don't they mention his sneaking around looking for a 
> chance for their backs to be turned to attack them?

Mike:
Actually, Lupin, in the floo conversation after SWM said; ... "he 
[Snape] never lost an opportunity to curse James..." That sounds like 
Snape did take his shots when conditions favored him. Note, it was 
Lupin and not Sirius that said this.



> wynnleaf
> I would not be so quick to lay out the comparison as James to Snape 
> = Harry to Draco.  <snip>
> Why not Harry to Draco  equating with  Snape to James?
> <snip>

> But guess what?  That's not the way Dumbledore arranged the order of
> the comparison.  <snip>

Mike:
I like your re-arrainging for the senior/junior parallels. I think it 
could prove a fruitful exercise to start from this point and 
speculate both what it might portend for Harry - Draco as well as 
backtracking to fill in some of the blank spots on Snape - James.

So, lets pair up the half-bloods (Harry & Severus) and the pure-
bloods (Draco & James) and see what that hints at in our look back.
Harry (nee Snape) gets harassed on the train home at the end of GoF, 
and with help from some older Gryffindors (Slytherins) clobber Draco 
(nee James) and pals. Hmmm? 

One year later, a seemingly alone Harry (Snape) is walking down the 
train corridor when Draco (James) tries to lay a trap for him. But a 
bunch of friends come to Harry's (Snape's) aid and clobber Draco and 
Co. (James and Co.). Hmmm, again.

Finally, Draco (James) catches Harry (Snape) unawares and hexes him 
before Harry (Snape) can use his wand. While Draco (James) has Harry 
(Snape) in a helpless position, he takes the opportunity to exact a 
little revenge. The encounter ends with Harry (Snape) in a rather 
embarrassing position. Hmmmm, sounds sort of familiar.


> wynnleaf
> She has Sirius tell Harry that Snape was never suspected of
> being a Death Eater -- showing us quite clearly that the Marauders
> never suspected it either, for all Sirius' comments that Snape was
> into the Dark Arts.

Mike:
Not quite. Sirius said that as far as he knew, Snape was never 
*accused* of being a Death Eater. And he continues by saying "not 
that that means much", that Snape was "clever and cunning enough to 
keep himself out of trouble." (GoF, p.531)

Sirius doesn't sound at all like he didn't suspect Snape, rather he 
sounds like he thought Snape easily could have been a DE but was 
cunning enough to keep it hidden. Turns out he was right, if I'm 
reading that passage correctly.

<snipping some good points, points I would agree with>

> wynnleaf
> Sure, he may have used them offensively, but we have no
> evidence of it.  And JKR has had plenty of scenes where she could
> easily have given that evidence.

Mike:
Here's where I diverge. I just don't see where JKR could have slid in 
some of Snape's misdeeds into the story. Therefore, I can't see many 
if any scenes where JKR would have comfortably fit in Bad!Snape.

But you see, I don't think Snape was the lead aggressor in the war 
vs. the Marauders. I don't at all disagree with you on this point. I 
also imagine that at least in the later school years, Snape was very 
much on his own and did his best to avoid James and Co. I'm just not 
convinced that this was always the case. At least, younger Sevie 
might not have shied away from encounters with James.


> wynnleaf
> I think there's a tendency to want Snape to be like Draco so that
> James could then be compared in a favorable light with Harry.  But 
> the evidence of canon doesn't support that.  
> 
> In POA, Sirius said in the Shrieking Shack that Peter was drawn to 
> the "biggest bully in the playground."  Sirius meant Voldemort, but 
> who was Peter following before Voldemort?  James and Sirius.  Maybe 
> when James quit being a bully is when Peter went looking for 
> another bully to follow.

Mike:
I left these two paragraphs, not to respond, but to say that this was 
a strong and compelling closing. Also, it wraps up a very strong post.

The thing about this forum is that I read your post and pick out the 
things I disagree with snip them and respond. So it looks like I 
pretty much disagree with your post in it's entirety. But that's not 
the case. I found much more to agree with in your post than to 
disagree with. And some that looked like my disagreement was really 
just my take on the way I read things. Not that yours was wrong, only 
different from mine.

Even though I used it against you <veg> I think your postulation  
whereby you compare Snape to Harry and not Draco is a very intriguing 
and original perspective. And I do think exploring this avenue has a 
real potential for profit. So I congratulate you, wynnleaf, for your 
theorizing.

Mike