Snape as Neville's teacher

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168403

> Alla:
>
> Well, then it is agree to disagree time :) I am certainly not
saying
> that subjects are identical or even very close, but I **am**
saying
> that they are at least related to the degree where Neville should
> not have been **that** scared of it, familiarity and all, but for
> the teacher. IMO of course.

Magpie:
I don't think Neville is scared of Potions. I think he's scared of
screwing up and being yelled at for it, which gets worse when he
does screw up the very first day and beyond--and Snape yells at him
for it. Snape makes his fear of screwing up worse. (I think his
grandmother has some responsibility there too.)


> Alla:
>
> I get the impression that JKR is showing with which type of
teachers
> Neville does well and with which he does not. Charmes do not seem
to
> me to be connected very much to his patience and kind nature
either
> and he still does very well.
>

Magpie:
That too, yes. But JKR also seems to accept that students can be
better at certain subjects. We can't just assume that if only Lupin
taught Potions Neville would be at Hermione's level. If Neville has
a good teacher and puts his mind to it he can do very well, and he
might very well have done better in Potions with a different
teacher. (I think it's also possible Neville with a different
teacher might have been more like Harry in Divinations, getting 
nothing out of the class at all--which is not meant as a personal 
defense of Snape's bullying; I just think it's true.)

McGonagall, when not allowing him to take Transfig, tells him he's
never seemed to "enjoy" Transfigurations. I suppose one might say
that Flitwick is less intimidating than McGonagall and that's why
Neville got an E in Charms and an A in Transfig, but it still seems
like it starts leaning too far towards the teachers, as if Neville
is so passive his grades simply reflect how nice the teacher is, and
I don't think that's the case. Sprout doesn't seem as brilliant or
necessarily kind as Lupin, and I don't recall any point where she is
shown to specifically reach out to Neville, yet that's the class
Neville does very well in. And since Neville's not taking his OWLS
with Snape and he seems okay there, he seems to be working on his
own abilities in the test. Yet he doesn't wind up in NEWT Potions.
Either he got an E or and O and wasn't interested in the subject or
he didn't qualify. Snape wasn't keeping him out of the class, since
he wasn't teaching it and Neville *did* happily take the class Snape
was teaching.

So the long and short of it is that I think Neville's probably
sorting out the way most kids are. Would he have warmed more to the
subject if he'd had a different teacher? Possibly--he might have
liked the class just because of the teacher. But based on the canon
we have it seems like a combination of negatives to me. We see
Neville messing up himself, along with Snape scaring him. Seems to
me honestly like Neville doesn't mind dropping Potions any more than
he minds dropping Transfiguration and that it's as much because he
doesn't enjoy Potions as it is due to not liking Snape. I do think
that Snape had a bad effect on Neville and that Neville was having
to deal with stress in that class that wasn't just about Potions--
and that wasn't fair to Neville. It just seems like he also didn't
have a natural aptitude for the subject. I actually think it's kind
of interesting when McG talks about Neville not enjoying Transfig--I
tend to see a little passive resistance in Neville, myself.

> Alla:
>
> Well, I was not very clear that this little speculation would only
> make sense to me if JKR would want to show how badly Snape
misjudged
> Neville's ability, which was clouded by fear, but was always
there.
> If Neville is really that bad at Potions, which I am still not
sure
> about, then obviously it makes no sense.
>
> But the fact that even Harry notices at Potions OWL that Neville
> performs much better when Snape is not there, makes me think that
he
> **at least** not that bad.

Magpie:
I guess that's the thing for me. Neville probably isn't a complete
menace, sure. But I think there's a difference between Neville not
being a complete menace when he's not made doubly nervous by Snape,
and a Neville's whose talents at Potions have been badly misjudged.
I don't think that's even what Harry himself indicates. Iirc, he
simply says that Neville, during the Potions OWL, without Snape
absent, "looked happier than Harry had ever seen him during a
Potions class." I thought Snape seemed like a mixture in the OWLS--
knowledge imparted to kids=good/personal intimidating presence=bad.

Neville makes mistakes himself, Hermione has been shown trying to
help him on the sly, he doesn't continue with Potions even with a
different teacher. Clearly Snape is a bad teacher for Neville
personally, but I think that's made worse with Neville not being
very good at the subject as well. He has no troubles with Snape in
DADA that I remember, and doesn't consider dropping the class
because Snape's teaching it. I almost think you lose something if
you take either of them out of the equation (iow, if Snape becomes
somebody just trying to give Neville tough love or if Neville is a
good student).

-m