[HPforGrownups] Snape as Neville's teacher (was:Re: Snape as Noble teache...

[OctobersChild48 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 168423

 
In a message dated 5/7/2007 7:03:16 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
horridporrid03 at yahoo.com writes:

> >>Sandy:
> Do you  actually believe that Snape was worried that all of this 
> unwanted,  unsought attention was going to go to Harry's head? Why 
> would Snape be  worried about this considering how much he despises 
> the boy? There is  no way you can convince me that Snape was 
> worried about  this.

Betsy Hp:
Heh. Well then, instead of aiming towards changing  your mind, I'll 
just try and clarify my own view point. <g>

I  *do* believe Snape worried about Harry's status as "The Boy Who 
Lived" and  the ego such a title might bring with it. But I'm not 
sure I'd put it down  as a worry *for* Harry's sake. (Though I'm not 
prepared to write that  particular idea off completely.) I can easily 
see Snape worried that an  "egotistical Harry" might disrupt his 
classroom and contest his authority.  So I can understand why Snape 
might want to stop that particular problem at  the get go. 

> >>Sandy:
> I have no doubt that the  attention that Harry was getting had 
> an effect on Snape. Here was James  Potter's son, and although new 
> to Hogwart's, he was already getting  more attention than his father 
> did. That could sure rub some salt into  some old wounds. And it 
> doesn't help matters any that Harry looks so  much like James.

Betsy Hp:
I absolutely agree that his history with  James (and possibly even 
Lily) would have had an effect on Snape's  judgement. Snape is, lets 
face it <g>, an emotional man. And he has  lots to be emotional about 
when it comes to James regardless of his good or  evil status.

So, yes, I imagine that Harry looking so much like his  father (and 
possibly Harry having his mother's eyes) would have come into  play. 
I can very easily see Snape imagining how James would have handled  
Harry's fame and deciding (possibly unconsiously) that Harry will 
react  in a similar way.

 
Sandy responds:
I have no doubt that Harry's looks came into play and I am sure  that Snape 
did imagine how James would have reacted to having Harry's fame,  but I doubt 
that his anticipation that Harry would react in a similar way was  unconscious 
or subconscious. 
 
 

> >>Sandy:
> <snip>
> This is pure,  unadulterated abuse on Snape's part. He is going to 
> give Harry as hard  of a time as he possibly can, and there is 
> nothing Harry can do about  it because he is just a child and Snape 
> is his teacher. This is a total  abuse of power, and Snape uses it 
> every chance he gets, starting the  minute he takes the roll call in 
> Harry's first class with him. He does  it because Harry exists. 

Betsy Hp:
Eh, I seriously doubt Snape zeros  in on Harry based merely on Harry's 
existance. There was some stuff going on  (as I pointed out 
previously) to suggest that Harry was actually quite  famous and 
getting unusual treatment from the students and the  staff.

And while Snape does set Harry done pretty hard, I'm not sure I'd  
label it out and out *abuse*. Blood wasn't spilled, nightmares were 
not  had. Goodness, Harry doesn't even get turned on by his House 
(McGonagall is  the professor who achieves that).
 
Sandy responds:
This list has hashed out many times the many forms of abuse. Blood  doesn't 
have to spill or nightmares be created for something to amount to abuse.  In 
this case I see it as abuse of authority. Harry did absolutely nothing to  
provoke Snape's actions or words. As for Harry's House not turning on him; why  
would it? There were enough Gryffindors in the class to see, and hear, what had  
happened and know Harry wasn't responsible. The situation with McGonagall was  
entirely different.


> >>Sandy:
> <snip of canon>
> This is  your, or anyone else's idea of a good, noble teacher?!?

Betsy Hp:
Yup!  <g> He's already got the class doing a practical lesson on the 
very  first day of Potions (making good use of classroom time) and 
he's moving  around the class, checking on everyone's work and 
correcting those that need  correcting. Seems like good teaching to 
me.
 
Sandy responds:
Checking and correcting everyone's work except Neville's it would  seem. How 
did he miss Neville?
 

> >>Sandy:
> He shows blatant favoritism for one  student, who just happens to 
> be in his House (does anyone doubt that  Hermione's potion turned 
> out just as well as Draco's?...

Betsy  Hp:
I don't doubt that Draco is doing an excellent job. And, as we've  
seen in HBP, Draco responds well to praise, and may well need it more  
than Hermione. 
 
 
Sandy responds:
Hermione is as insecure as they come and needs the praise every bit  as much 
as Draco does. Have you forgotten what her boggart is?
 
 
BetsyHp:
Though I'd also add that it wouldn't surprise me if 
Draco *were* doing  a better job at stewing his slugs than Hermione at 
this stage in the game.  This is a brand new world for Hermione, but 
Draco's been in it for a  while.
 
 
Sandy responds:
Draco may have been in that world for a while but his status was the same  as 
Hermione's. They were both first year's on their first day in Potions class.  
Given what we know about Hermione I see no reason to believe Draco was doing 
any  better. And, because Hermione *was* new to the Wizarding World I would 
think any  teacher she had would be a little more attentive of her work to see 
if she is  adjusting well. And while we are on this subject I would like to 
point out that  it was a brand new world for Harry too. I have no doubt that 
Hermione was made  aware of the WW at least several days before Harry considering 
how long it took  Harry to finally get his letter. I also have no doubt that 
Snape knew Harry was  new to the WW, which, IMO, makes Snape's treatment of him 
even more unfair,  especially if you lay it to Snape not wanting Harry's fame 
to go to his head. 


> >>Sandy:
> He calls another student an idiot (good  teaching skills 
> there),

Betsy Hp:
I think that's actually  pretty typical British teacher speak. Or at 
least, in "To Serve Them All My  Days" the really good, well liked 
teacher routinely called his students  idiot boys or little pests or 
the like when they got up to wrong doing.  IIRC, anyway. I got the 
sense that this was not an over the top way to  address a student 
who'd done something wrong. Not a big insult, IOWs.
 
Sandy responds:
Not being British or having read that book(?), I wouldn't know. But being  
American I consider it a very big insult, and I believe it was meant to be an  
insult.


> >>Sandy:
> How can anyone read this passage and  have any kind of respect for 
> Snape - period, much less as a teacher?  This passage formed my 
> opinion of Snape, and nothing he has ever done  since has altered 
> it.


Betsy Hp:
Me too! Only in a totally  opposite way! Isn't that weird? This is 
the scene where I sat up and took  notice. I had been reading along, 
amused and intrigued, but not really  *sold* on the books, and then 
suddenly, "hello Professor Snape!" My  goodness, I don't think I'd 
expected a character so darkly sexy in a  children's book. (Actually, 
JKR does a pretty good job inserting a bunch of  amazingly hot men 
into her children's books. It's like there's a type for  every need; 
she could seriously do a calander. <g>)

Sandy  responds:
Oy! I honestly don't understand this at all. Sexy? Hot men? I'm beginning  to 
think I should be worried about myself because I haven't seen a sexy hot man  
in the books yet. I am amazed at the number of intelligent, well-educated 
women  on this list who, if Snape were a *real* person, would be in love and lust 
with  him and would fall straight into bed with him when they wouldn't have 
two  words for the clean-cut guy who lives next door. Even JKR has given some  
attention to this phenomenon. His physical description alone is a turn off, 
but  how in the world can anyone be turned on by someone so mean and hateful? I 
will  admit that he is mysterious and intriguing, but sexy?!


> >>Sandy:
> I am with Dana; the whole attitude  on this list towards Snape 
> nauseates me. This is, of course, my  opinion.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh dear, I probably totally  lost you with my last then. <bg>
 
Sandy responds:
Yes, I'm afraid so.
 

BetsyHp:
I will say, you and Dana are not alone. There are quite a  few folks 
still fighting the "Snape is evil!" fight. Only DH will let us  know 
who is ultimately right.
 
Sandy responds:
I have yet to use the word *evil* in this thread. Read my description in my  
next paragraph and you will not see the word evil anywhere. As you say, only 
DH  will answer the question of whether Snape is evil or not. My argument,  
especially in this thread, is not that he is evil, but that he is mean, nasty,  
hateful, spiteful, vindictive, totally abusive and unfair to Harry, and that  
there is nothing good or noble about him, especially his teaching method. What  
few good qualities he has are totally over-ruled and overwhelmed by the bad 
in  him. IMO, there is absolutely nothing likeable about him, much less  
lovable.
 
 

BetsyHp:
Though actually, I'm betting that even if Snape turns out  good, those 
that dislike him will still have reason to dislike him. I don't  
expect JKR to *completely* reconfigure his character. So just as 
there  are battles royal between Sirius lovers and haters, I imagine 
the battle  over Snape will rage on. (I'm not sure how it will work 
if Snape is really  evil, though.)
 
 
Sandy responds:
My dislike for Snape has nothing to do with where his loyalties lie, they  
are based strictly upon his attitude and actions, therefore, if he does turn out 
 to be on the good side, my feelings will be no different; I still won't like 
 him.
 

> >>Sandy:
> But he is a nasty, hateful, spiteful man,  and none of the 
> aforementioned qualities can redeem him from that, in  my opinion, 
> especially because of his method of teaching when it comes  to 
> Harry and Neville. He blatantly picks on both of them, and not to  
> improve their grades or ability to learn, but because he hates 
>  both of them, albeit for different reasons.
 
 
Sandy again:
As I said above, there is no use of the word evil.
 

Betsy Hp:
See, I honestly see nothing personal at all in his  treatment of 
Neville. There's nothing that suggests to me that Snape  actually 
*hates* Neville. Goodness, if Snape did hate Neville, he's been  
awfully good about it considering the many different buttons Snape 
could  easily push. "My, my another disasterous potion. Won't 
Grandmother be  proud." "I'm sure it's a relief knowing your parents 
will never know what a  failure you are." etc., etc.



Sandy responds:
Despite not using these tactics I still believe Snape hates Neville. It  
could be that he perceives Neville as being weak, or it could be that he sees  
similarities  to his self when he was Neville's age. I keep thinking of the  fact 
that the Marauders called Snape Snivellus. Regardless of what the reason, I  
think there can be no doubt that Snape either hates, or at least highly 
dislikes  Neville. Not, of course, to the same degree he despises Harry.
 
Sandy, who is so pleased to be taking part in this give and take  
conversation and having enough knowledge of canon to be able to do so.








************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]