Snape as Neville's teacher (was:Re: Snape as Noble teache...

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 168415

> >>Betsy  Hp:
> I agree that Harry doesn't emphasize his own celebrity. But it  
> wasn't Snape who caused the Gryffindor table to cheer, "We got 
> Potter,  we got Potter!" at Harry's Sorting. And it wasn't Snape   
> who caused  Flitwick to faint at the sight of Harry Potter in his 
> classroom. Snape's  worries weren't formed in a vacuum.

> >>Sandy responds:
> <snip>
> As to the above attributed quote: No, Snape did not cause either   
> reaction, but neither did Harry.

Betsy Hp:
You're right, Harry didn't ask for his celebrity and I acknowledge 
that completely.

> >>Sandy:
> <snip>
> Therefore, Snape's comment to  Harry was totally unfounded and     
> unwarranted.

Betsy Hp:
Well, you know that, and I know that, but I'm not sure Snape does.  
And therein lies the rub.  At least for me.  I *do* recognize that 
Snape did not need to come down on Harry so hard.  I also recognize 
that it caused more harm than good.  (Imagine the series if Harry was 
even just neutral towards Snape.)

What I see, and what I'm trying to say is that while understanding 
that Snape made a mistake in coming down so hard on Harry, I totally 
understand *why* that mistake was made.  And I don't really hold that 
mistake against Snape.  Not as fiercely as some, anyway.

> >>Sandy:
> Snape's worries? Are you kidding with this?

Betsy Hp:
No, not at all. <g>  My entire interest is in figuring out the what, 
where, how, and most especially *why* of Snape.

> >>Sandy:
> Do you  actually believe that Snape was worried that all of this   
> unwanted, unsought  attention was going to go to Harry's head? Why 
> would Snape be worried about this  considering how much he despises 
> the boy? There is no way you can convince me  that Snape was 
> worried about this.

Betsy Hp:
Heh.  Well then, instead of aiming towards changing your mind, I'll 
just try and clarify my own view point. <g>

I *do* believe Snape worried about Harry's status as "The Boy Who 
Lived" and the ego such a title might bring with it.  But I'm not 
sure I'd put it down as a worry *for* Harry's sake.  (Though I'm not 
prepared to write that particular idea off completely.)  I can easily 
see Snape worried that an "egotistical Harry" might disrupt his 
classroom and contest his authority.  So I can understand why Snape 
might want to stop that particular problem at the get go. 

> >>Sandy:
> I have no doubt that the attention that Harry  was getting had 
> an effect on Snape. Here was James Potter's son, and although new  
> to Hogwart's, he was already getting more attention than his father 
> did.  That could sure rub some salt into some old wounds. And it    
> doesn't help matters  any that Harry looks so much like James.

Betsy Hp:
I absolutely agree that his history with James (and possibly even 
Lily) would have had an effect on Snape's judgement.  Snape is, lets 
face it <g>, an emotional man.  And he has lots to be emotional about 
when it comes to James regardless of his good or evil status.

So, yes, I imagine that Harry looking so much like his father (and 
possibly Harry having his mother's eyes) would have come into play.  
I can very easily see Snape imagining how James would have handled 
Harry's fame and deciding (possibly unconsiously) that Harry will 
react in a similar way.

> >>Sandy:
> <snip>
> This is pure, unadulterated abuse on Snape's part. He is going to   
> give  Harry as hard of a time as he possibly can, and there is     
> nothing Harry can do  about it because he is just a child and Snape 
> is his teacher. This is a total  abuse of power, and Snape uses it 
> every chance he gets, starting the minute he takes the roll call in 
> Harry's first class with him. He does it because Harry  exists. 

Betsy Hp:
Eh, I seriously doubt Snape zeros in on Harry based merely on Harry's 
existance.  There was some stuff going on (as I pointed out 
previously) to suggest that Harry was actually quite famous and 
getting unusual treatment from the students and the staff.

And while Snape does set Harry done pretty hard, I'm not sure I'd 
label it out and out *abuse*.  Blood wasn't spilled, nightmares were 
not had.  Goodness, Harry doesn't even get turned on by his House 
(McGonagall is the professor who achieves that).

I also think that if he so desired, Snape could have been a *lot* 
harder on Harry.  Instead he's just really really attentive. <g>

> >>Sandy:
> <snip of canon>
> This is your, or anyone else's idea of a good, noble teacher?!?

Betsy Hp:
Yup! <g>  He's already got the class doing a practical lesson on the 
very first day of Potions (making good use of classroom time) and 
he's moving around the class, checking on everyone's work and 
correcting those that need correcting.  Seems like good teaching to 
me.

> >>Sandy:
> He shows blatant favoritism for one student, who just  happens to  
> be in his House (does anyone doubt that Hermione's potion turned   
> out  just as well as Draco's?...

Betsy Hp:
I don't doubt that Draco is doing an excellent job.  And, as we've 
seen in HBP, Draco responds well to praise, and may well need it more 
than Hermione.  Though I'd also add that it wouldn't surprise me if 
Draco *were* doing a better job at stewing his slugs than Hermione at 
this stage in the game.  This is a brand new world for Hermione, but 
Draco's been in it for a while.

> >>Sandy:
> ... - the same Hermione who knew the answers to all of  Snape's    
> questions, but who he totally ignored).

Betsy Hp:
And well done Snape for that, IMO.  He could see that Hermione knew 
the answer.  Why get the rest of the class dependent on her?  Too 
many teachers in Hogwarts turn to Hermione when the rest of the class 
stays quiet, IMO, with the result that after a while no one bothers 
trying to answer a question if Hermione is around.  (I can't recall 
where the exact quote is, but there is a point where the text says 
exactly that.)

> >>Sandy:
> He calls another student an  idiot (good teaching skills 
> there),

Betsy Hp:
I think that's actually pretty typical British teacher speak.  Or at 
least, in "To Serve Them All My Days" the really good, well liked 
teacher routinely called his students idiot boys or little pests or 
the like when they got up to wrong doing. IIRC, anyway.  I got the 
sense that this was not an over the top way to address a student 
who'd done something wrong.  Not a big insult, IOWs.

> >>Sandy:
> ...and blames another student for that one's  mistake and docks    
> points from him.

Betsy Hp:
I do agree that it was strange for Snape to blame Harry for Neville's 
error. I suppose I could spin this to say Snape was putting the loss 
of a point onto the more popular Harry, thereby protecting Neville.  
But that seems like too much of a stretch for me.  Kind of how I'm 
not a big fan of the "Snape's being mean to Harry and Neville to 
toughen them up" school of thought.  It's too easy, and I think JKR 
would need to have dropped a hint or two from the start if she were 
going to go with this sort of thing.

So I think I will have to go with Snape being a bit too eager to put 
blame for things on Harry.  Though there's an odd juxtaposition with 
the thrown firecracker in CoS.  Why on earth would Snape need *proof* 
at that point to put the blame on Harry when he doesn't need proof to 
blame Harry in this scene?  Why not just dock a bunch of points from 
Gryffindor if Snape isn't interested in fairness?

It's a mystery.

> >>Sandy:
> How can anyone read this passage and have any  kind of respect for 
> Snape - period, much less as a teacher? This passage formed  my    
> opinion of Snape, and nothing he has ever done since has altered   
> it.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Me too!  Only in a totally opposite way!  Isn't that weird?  This is 
the scene where I sat up and took notice.  I had been reading along, 
amused and intrigued, but not really *sold* on the books, and then 
suddenly, "hello Professor Snape!"  My goodness, I don't think I'd 
expected a character so darkly sexy in a children's book. (Actually, 
JKR does a pretty good job inserting a bunch of amazingly hot men 
into her children's books.  It's like there's a type for every need; 
she could seriously do a calander. <g>)

I'm not sure I realized that Snape *wasn't* the bad guy yet.  (Hmm, 
maybe *that's* why JKR threw in a moment of blatent not-fair-ness?)  
But he certainly had my attention. <eg>

> >>Sandy:
> I am with Dana; the whole attitude on this list towards Snape      
> nauseates me. This is, of course, my opinion.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Oh dear, I probably totally lost you with my last then. <bg>

I will say, you and Dana are not alone.  There are quite a few folks 
still fighting the "Snape is evil!" fight.  Only DH will let us know 
who is ultimately right.

Though actually, I'm betting that even if Snape turns out good, those 
that dislike him will still have reason to dislike him.  I don't 
expect JKR to *completely* reconfigure his character.  So just as 
there are battles royal between Sirius lovers and haters, I imagine 
the battle over Snape will rage on.  (I'm not sure how it will work 
if Snape is really evil, though.)

> >>Sandy:
>  But he is a nasty, hateful,  spiteful man, and none of the 
> aforementioned qualities can redeem him from that,  in my opinion, 
> especially because of his method of teaching when it comes to      
> Harry and Neville. He blatantly picks on both of them, and not to   
> improve their  grades or ability to learn, but because he hates     
> both of them, albeit for  different reasons.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
See, I honestly see nothing personal at all in his treatment of 
Neville.  There's nothing that suggests to me that Snape actually 
*hates* Neville.  Goodness, if Snape did hate Neville, he's been 
awfully good about it considering the many different buttons Snape 
could easily push. "My, my another disasterous potion.  Won't 
Grandmother be proud." "I'm sure it's a relief knowing your parents 
will never know what a failure you are." etc., etc.

Betsy Hp